RADBMX.CO.UK
Technical & Reference Section => Tech and Restoration => Topic started by: monkian on February 23, 2010, 07:23 PM
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OK here's the story: Almost 2 years ago I (along with a few others on here) bought what was advertised as an NOS Tange 320 Headset. Since then this has been sitting in a box along with the rest of the bits and pieces I've been collecting. Noticing the prices increase over time, along with the fact that I'm skint, I decided to put mine up for sale (today). As always, I try to research the items I put up for sale but as I was doing this I stumbled across this potentially disappointing piece of information.
Tange 303 (left) Vs Tange 320 (right):
The last shot is a complete 303 set.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_ebay01.jpg) (http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_ebay02.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_ebay03.jpg) (http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_ebay04.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_ebay05.jpg) (http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_ebay06.jpg)
Checking this info against mine, it looks like I've bought maybe part of a 320 but also part of a relabeled 303. I have the O-Ring on the bottom piece (bearings also look OK) but no octagon or O-Ring on the Crown / Nut. I questioned the issue with the missing O-Ring at the time but was reassured by the seller that only the bottom race was sealed. Looking closer at the box it came in, it has a reflective 320 sticker on which, when I peeled it back, revealed '303'. Anyway knowing this I've now pulled the sale.
If you've got one, it might be worth checking what you've got. :(
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(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange320_04.jpg) (http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange320_05.jpg)
Did Tange relabel 303 boxes?
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If anyone has any supportive / conflicting information on this subject. It'd be useful to hear it :daumenhoch:
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Here's a pic of mine. Can you tell anything from the decals?
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange320_01.jpg)
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Glen,is the 320 sealed mech on your(now dont take this the wrong way) ...box printed on as opposed to a decal? just another spanner in the works.
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hmm,the plot thickens.
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The guy who sold to me said in his post he bought in bulk from the US :-\
The box relabel thing I could see as a factory thing but the Octagon (O-Ringed) Nut & Octagon Top Cup is the key.
We could do with a few more examples.
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My NOS 320 has a single o ring only on the bottom and a hex 6 sided top cup and top nut.
and mine, was used. :-\
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What we've got is a 320 bottom and a 303 top labled as 320.
So the differences are:
303: no seals, 6 sided hex cup and top nut
320: single sealed lower part, 8 sided octagon cup and top nut.
Plus 320 has the O-Ringed Octagon Top Nut (I guess, effectively sealing the top part)
(this all looks like the case if the information is correct in those images)
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yep hex 6 sided top cup and top nut
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Yeah, seems odd. It'd be useful anyway to know for sure what's what.
I asked the guy who had the original images on ebay to send me this.
It shows the parts for a 'Tange MX-303' with unsealed crown (bottom) race.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange_parts02.jpg)
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despite all of the above,still a nice headset to own! nice one guys.
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TBH Glen,it wouldn't bother me either, but not taking anything away from Monkian for bring it up,good point of interest.
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The issue I had was if I had sold it on saying it was something it's not.
With what I'd found out. I had to bring it up.
It's not about pointing fingers it's just about the knowledge :daumenhoch:
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The issue I had was if I had sold it on saying it was something it's not.
With what I'd found out. I had to bring it up.
It's not about pointing fingers it's just about the knowledge :daumenhoch:
Totally agree! Good on ya.
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I just got in touch with a guy based in Canada who's selling one on eBay.
He said about his:
the head nut is 6 sided with no rubber o ring. the
320 on the box seems to be a silver decal stuck to
the box
...it has an o ring on the bottom and 303 printed in gold on the top of the box.
Cheers
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sounds like there are a lot of them out there. I could be going completely loopy,but do i remember the top cup on one of these headsets(not sure which model) having a groove machined out of the inside(at the bottom) to take a sealing o'ring,in the same fashion as for the lower cup?
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That's a new one on me :-\
I'm now thinking, if this is on a massive scale, a bulk purchase of 303's, a custom part with an o-ring (or even bulk purchase of that 320 part), a few decals and you've got a product potentially 3 times as valuable. Maybe it would be worth the hasstle :-\ Or potential factory error but wouldn't there be a recall / mass complaints etc? Or the info about the top section is wrong ???
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i'm probably thinking of some thing else,maybe a different model of Tange headset. God only knows what the deal is with the re labeling issue,perhaps a bunch of left overs at the Tange factory??
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Taking into account all that has been said before?...I will give you £20 for it :daumenhoch:
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Taking into account all that has been said before?...I will give you £20 for it :daumenhoch:
:LolLolLolLol:
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I would say Tange........... or is that Tioga repackaged as Tange?
Anyway.... they probably put together remaining parts they had, clearanced them out, and moved on to bigger, better things.
25 years ago. :)
The Tange name isn't a sticker over 'Crocodile' brand, or is it?
The comparison Tange pics you have, are from a seller on ebay, who was trying to drive up the price of his 303's .
Why would you need an 8 sided nut?
What good would the top nut O-ring do? It doesn't seal off the bearing. Maybe Tange/Tioga saw it as a big waste.
It's a headset...... after all.
C-ya'
CW :coolsmiley:
4253Calvinw ebay seller of old school BMX :)
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I would say Tange........... or is that Tioga repackaged as Tange?
No idea what you mean. As far as I'm aware we're looking at Tange products.
The Tange name isn't a sticker over 'Crocodile' brand, or is it?
Only sticker on the box is as shown in the pics.
The comparison Tange pics you have, are from a seller on ebay, who was trying to drive up the price of his 303's .
He was selling a 303 but took the time to point out the differences. That doesn't mean the info he provided is wrong.
Why would you need an 8 sided nut?
What good would the top nut O-ring do? It doesn't seal off the bearing. Maybe Tange/Tioga saw it as a big waste.
It's a headset...... after all.
Again, no idea what you're saying here but thanks for sharing your thoughts :daumenhoch:
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I would say Tange........... or is that Tioga repackaged as Tange?
No idea what you mean. As far as I'm aware we're looking at Tange products.
You didn't say anything about them doing that, Why not?
The Tange name isn't a sticker over 'Crocodile' brand, or is it?
Only sticker on the box is as shown in the pics.
The comparison Tange pics you have, are from a seller on ebay, who was trying to drive up the price of his 303's .
He was selling a 303 but took the time to point out the differences. That doesn't mean the info he provided is wrong.
I can't tell your 1985 Tange catalog pictures do not show a 320 headset
Why would you need an 8 sided nut?
What good would the top nut O-ring do? It doesn't seal off the bearing. Maybe Tange/Tioga saw it as a big waste.
It's a headset...... after all.
Again, no idea what you're saying here but thanks for sharing your thoughts :daumenhoch:
My wrenches are 12 point and 6 point why would you need an 8 sided Octagan nut?? Not hard to understand the question is it.
An O-ring in the top nut for what? To keep the dirt and dust off of the titted washer? Again a simple question and IMO a waste of an O-ring.
Sorry if you didn't understand the questions :)
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I think you've missed the point of what we're trying to do here. It's not about what's needed. We're just trying to work out what the facts are between the two different Tange sets and perhaps what / how we've got what we've got. Sorry I can't help you but you seem to be asking questions only Tange can answer. I have no idea why Tange made an 8 sided nut or put an o-ring on it ???
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What is needed is a true picture of a 320 Tange.
Not pictures from someone trying to run up the bids on his 303.
Wouldn't you agree? ???
Does anyone have a Tange 320 headset with the 8 sided top nut and adjusting cone?
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I've got a vintage 320 on my TA, i'll have to have a good look at it. I seem to remember that they came in a clear plastic box all spread out in foam sections. It stands to reason that they would have mixed the two in the late 80's to sell the stuff off though.
Excellent who dunnit thread.
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What is needed is a true picture of a 320 Tange.
Not pictures from someone trying to run up the bids on his 303.
Wouldn't you agree? ???
Does anyone have a Tange 320 headset with the 8 sided top nut and adjusting cone?
That's the idea :daumenhoch:
No one here has come to any conclusions on the subject.
If you read what's been said already that includes the validity of the information presented.
If you've got anything factual that backs up or disputes it that would be useful :daumenhoch:
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I've got a vintage 320 on my TA, i'll have to have a good look at it. I seem to remember that they came in a clear plastic box all spread out in foam sections. It stands to reason that they would have mixed the two in the late 80's to sell the stuff off though.
Excellent who dunnit thread.
That should do the trick ;)
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Here ya' go...... But I see 8 and 6 sided. Post #10 To make it even more murky the top washer is Beartrap on the 8 sided.
http://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=13526
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Just popped out to the garage to look at the 320 on my Robbo race bike and it has an 8 sided nut with washer and it's also a beartrap. ;)
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Just popped out to the garage to look at the 320 on my Robbo race bike and it has an 8 sided nut with washer and it's also a beartrap. ;)
Nice one Holmes ;) :daumenhoch:
The photos in the museum also show 320's with 8 sided nuts, one with a beartrap (along with one that looks like ours) :D
The plot thickens...
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/pp314/buddysam1/DSC03140.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/pp314/buddysam1/DSC02350.jpg)
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Yup, that's the one I have but in chrome with a Blue decal.
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Just realised,i kind of have one on these. Mine came in a grey Tioga box with BEARTRAP 4 SL on it. The headset sounds like Zippy's,blue band in chrome with the teeth in the top cup.
Forgot to add,locknut is octagonal.
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Just realised,i kind of have one on these. Mine came in a grey Tioga box with BEARTRAP 4 SL on it. The headset sounds like Zippy's,blue band in chrome with the teeth in the top cup.
Forgot to add,locknut is octagonal.
I was looking at those last night.
I guess the head nut might be stamped Tioga rather than Tange but it has Tange on the decals ???
http://martinbike.jalbum.net/Bike%20Builder/Headsets/slides/15b0_1.html
(http://martinbike.jalbum.net/Bike%20Builder/Headsets/slides/15b0_1.jpg)
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Dave, lets see it mate!
I'll have to wait till my I.T consultant (my eldest) comes home from college,i'm thick as sh#t when it comes to things like photos/photobucket.
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It's looking like the Tioga 4SL & Tange 320 could be one and the same:
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/f174/mervyk/tange4sl.jpg)
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is the top of the top cone on the 320 serrated for the beartrap toothed locking washer?
Just dug out the box one of mine came in,it's a little box like an MX125 comes in. Also found the top locking nuts that my headsets came with,one came stamped TANGE MOTOCROSS JAPAN and the other simply TIOGA JAPAN.
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As a visual reference to back up the original post,
here's a 303 (6 sided nut, stamped Motorcross Tange Japan):
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/vv137/lowhighlander/abmx10.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/vv137/lowhighlander/abmx9.jpg)
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(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r23/Bellsta--x/DSCI0012-3.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r23/Bellsta--x/DSCI0011.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r23/Bellsta--x/DSCI0010.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r23/Bellsta--x/DSCI0001-5.jpg)
pics arn't brill,but good for me though.
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So does that Beartrap washer just sit on a smooth top cup or does it have the locking grooves? ???
If that makes sense.
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The mating face on top of the upper cup(on my headsets) does have the serrations for the tab/lock washer for the beartrap to lock into,hence the rubber o'ring on the bottom of the lock nut.
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The mating face on top of the upper cup(on my headsets) does have the serrations for the tab/lock washer for the beartrap to lock into,hence the rubber o'ring on the bottom of the lock nut.
So you have a grooved / serrated top cup on your 320 / 4SL ???
Jesus, I think that make's it different again to the original 320 comparison shots ::)
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that looks like the serrated egde is sitting on flat surface
I know what you mean,but trust me,it's serrated. Both of mine are.
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The mating face on top of the upper cup(on my headsets) does have the serrations for the tab/lock washer for the beartrap to lock into,hence the rubber o'ring on the bottom of the lock nut.
So you have a grooved / serrated top cup on your 320 / 4SL ???
Jesus, I think that make's it different again to the original comparison shots ::)
Accurate from the beginning to the end.
Not many BMX parts manufacturers are consistent with the product.
They never have been, Watson.
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Anyone else thought about having a rib removed ::)
The 8 sided top cup and sealed nut seems to be consistent & it's hard to tell if the original 320 example is grooved or if there's a beartrap washer or not.
It'll be good to see what Bob and Si come up with ;) Still work to do I'd say.
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all the tioga or tange headsets i have are 6 sided for unsealed and 8 sided for sealed.
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I'll take a proper picture of mine tonight when I get in.
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I'll take a proper picture of mine tonight when I get in.
That'll confirm for sure what components came with the original / vintage 320's :daumenhoch:
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This has become a bit of a personal mission but I'm now satisfied with the conclusion :daumenhoch:
It's a shame we've lost some of the original images in the thread but it makes no difference.
This was advertised on ebay as a 'Sealed' Tange 303
I emailed the guy who explained it was only the Crown Race that was sealed.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange303_01.jpg)
This suggests, looking at the 303 & 320 shots on page 1, that there could be a sealed and un-sealed 303.
And that you can get a 320 with and without the Beartrap element.
Tioga (MX) 4SL Beartrap / Tange Seiki 320 (Left) V's Tange Seiki Sealed 303 (with 320 Decal, Right)
I've just bought myself a Tioga 4SL / Tange 320 so I can physically compare the two sets.
For me, this is prove beyond any doubt that the original headset in question is a re-labeled sealed 303.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange_320_303_01.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange320_02-1.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/tange_320_303_03.jpg)
Both awesome Headsets. Same quality, same material and stronger than the Alloy Tange 125LP.
I've seen 320 & 303 sets go for the same money on ebay. Why these 303's are relabeled is a mystery.
I hope this clears a few things up. :coolsmiley:
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There's only one way to settle this?..............................FFFFFFFight! :D
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Just found these so thought I'd add them to the pot :)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/Tioga%20Catalogue/tioga_cat05.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/i175/vimto_uk/Tioga%20Catalogue/tioga_cat06.jpg)
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Ive just got a powerlite pro off the bay and it has a 300 tange headset-never heard of it!
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Ive just got a powerlite pro off the bay and it has a 300 tange headset-never heard of it!
I've just updated some info on Page 2, it has the Tange 300 spec :daumenhoch:
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Bringing this back up ... so is there much difference in value between the 303 and 320?
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I've seen them go for similar money but the 320 usually commands a bit more.
Don't ask me for a price. In the current climate it'll be wildly different from country to country ::)
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It's just that i've been looking for a 125 or 320 and last night i was offered a 303 for $160 posted to UK .. so upon starting a bit of research i found this!
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Also, it looks like there could be an un-sealed version of each and a 320 without the Beartrap element.
As Glen said: 303's should have 6 sided lock-nut & adjusting cup/cone rule / 320 have 8 sided :D
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Just the difference in value i was wondering about really
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had to check mine just to see ,,sorry for the shitty phone pics
8 sided with the bear trap element
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/v716/glenbett/27a925f6.jpg)
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/v716/glenbett/4fd99e54.jpg)
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Yes, an old post and, yes, it has lost virtually all of it photographs :'( but the commentary is excellent. I think the term is necro-posting but I do not care. This is a fabulous thread, and I love this kind of stuff.
I was looking for some very specific parts at MK18, all of which had to funded by the sale of some of my most treasured parts; they had to be sacrificed for a new build.
I was very lucky at MK18, both with the volume of sales and the tracking down of wanted parts, better than I had ever hoped for. So, to the part in question, I found a Tioga Beartrap 4SL headset (red decals which made the score even the more sweet). The part was on a small stall but every part the guy had was super nice, the chrome 7x rims were soooooo lush! Ah, I did not even dare ask how much! Anyway, here is the headset:
[attachment=1]
The top nut is six sided, no 'o' ring and un-stamped, concerns me a little. The beartrap element of the top bearing cup is also different from other beartraps I have seen, there is no lip around the circumference of the serrations.
Anyway, loved the thread and glad to contribute...be it a few years on!
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The top nut has definitely been replaced. I've got a 320 Beartrap cup but it's not at hand at the moment so I can't compare them. The locking washer looks a bit weak though. I remember them being thicker. Hopefully a few others will chip in and help on this as well ;)
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A couple of pics of the Beartrap section of one of my old sets for comparison:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180814/72e568caf6f6b79ab53966b09ac7d558.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180814/7de457912f869190d5899f10ea132b2e.jpg)
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I love this thread too Paul. It’s one i often check back on. Nice to see it again 👍
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Super, all is well and I am satisfied that mine is spot on except for the top nut which is an easy fix. The washer is fine, I think it is the perspective making it look a bit thin.
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All good. It's nice knowing that the thread is still helpful. It's what this place is all about :)
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^ yes fistblump