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New School BMX 2004 - Now => New School Park, Street & Dirt => Topic started by: Peter J on February 27, 2011, 01:36 PM
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Why are some rear brake lugs on the seat stays and others on the chain stay?
and whats the advantages of each design ?
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i have seat stay brakes, but i understand chain stay brakes are the most efficient ones for braking power.
not sure seat stay have an advantages other than they never interfere with the chain, some brakes on chainstay brakes can be a problem with todays smaller sprocket. (chain ring if you're old skool. lol)
sure someone more knowledgable will be along to put me right shortly.
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yeah they are a pain on the chain stays.
lowest i can run is a 33/13 and that was with me grinding the brake cone down a bit.
could do with seeing if theres any flatter type for mine.
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i'll have a look at them glen :daumenhoch:
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I've had a Fly frame with chainstay mounts and a Fly brake ran 28/10 with no issues, there was enough clearance for 25/9
Current frame has seat stay mounts, i'll be honest there's no noticable differance in stopping power
Let the debate begin.... :LolLolLolLol:
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I can sense Alex lacing his boxing gloves up at this very moment...... :LolLolLolLol:
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i guess it's not about stopping power, more gripping power, if you're doing techy mini ramp stuff, on the back wheel, brake held on, then a rider might feel flex in the stays, and more so on the seat stays than on the chain stays.
yeah Rob....where is Alex? lol.
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Bah, I cant be arsed! :LolLolLolLol:
Chainstay = Better cable routing (esp if you use a gyro), better outercable stop (if you use the seat tube), cleaner/better looking. Stronger setup cos the brake is pulling TOWARD the frame, not away from it.
Seat stay = Better if you run a tiny gearing. There is NO other reason to put the brake up there. (btw, my 28:10 fits with a chainstay brake just fine)
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i knew he couldn't resist!
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Righty Ho.
Brakes used to be ont eh Chainstay all the time, as 44:16 gearing never interfered with the brake. Some flatlanders had seatstay mounts for their smaller gearing, when frames werent designed around small front chainrings.
Then , as newer smaller gearing came in, seatstay mounts became more of a regular thing to get the lower, smaller chain/sprockets out of the way of the rear brake.
But now, frames that have chainstay mounts can take 25/9 gearing no problem. It's all about frame companies designing the chainstays/BB junction to accommodate little gearing. Deluxe, Terrible One, Fly etc - all have done or do this.
I recently had my custom S&M made - with chainstay lugs. It make perfect sense - the brake is being pulled ONTO the frame with the momentum of the wheel - rather than ppulled AWAY from the seatstays when you have brake mounts up top. Hence the reason you barely see a cracked chainstya brake lug. But you do see them on seatstays...
I wish Id had my 2nd trails frame from S&M done with chainstay lugs too - I forgot to put it in the order - bah.
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ive never owned a frame with chainstay lugs.......that was until you posted up that bloody Winstanleys link you sod!! :LolLolLolLol:
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i think my probs is with the shitty brake i got at the minute.
gonna have a look at that evo brake.
right then while were at it.
whats the best brake pads for coloured rims.
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Dave, for the money you can't get any better than the Diatech AD999. Have a look on BMX Citys ebay store......i run them on both mine and they're lovely and light and low stack height all for £24 posted! they were £60 when the came out :shocked:
here you go Dave, they have slightly angled arms for better cable line
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BMX-U-BRAKE-Diatech-AD999-Box-U-Brake-/400151054282?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item5d2adc87ca
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Are you not riding brakeless yet Dave
and wearing your pants round your ass ::)
Get wiv it :D
:-*
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i tried the girly jeans but could'nt get my foot through the hole ;D.
i'll have a look at them rob.
not worth me spending loads for what bit of riding i do.
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I've got one of those AD999s, can't fault it really, it's just like a posh Hombre.
Stodgy has some good brake blocks to suit anno'd rims in stock, I just can't remember the name of em......
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they have slightly angled arms for better cable line
??????????
Must .... not .... get .... involved ....... must ..... keep .... mouth ..... shut ....... :-X
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:LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol:
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they have slightly angled arms for better cable line
??????????
Must .... not .... get .... involved ....... must ..... keep .... mouth ..... shut ....... :-X
not my view Alex just quoting the sales pitch ;)
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Must .... not .... get .... involved ....... must ..... keep .... mouth ..... shut ......
instead of keep ya mouth shut why dont you just give me your opinion so i dont waste my money on something i dont know about but seems you do.
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Must .... not .... get .... involved ....... must ..... keep .... mouth ..... shut ......
instead of keep ya mouth shut why dont you just give me your opinion so i dont waste my money on something i dont know about but seems you do.
Sorry, this is why the joke was made at the start of this thread. I spend WAY to much time getting worked up about bad brake positions and poor ways of pretending to overcome one of the problems.
When you have the brake on the seat stay and the outer cable stops on the toptube, the hanger wire isnt in line with the movement of the brake arms. You are pulling against the pivot, not with it. You get the same problem if you have a chain stay brake and the cable stop on the down tube. The better way is to have the cable stop on the seat tube, so the inner wire/hanger is parallel with the tube that the brake is mounted on. This is harder to do with a seat stay brake cos the seat post is in the way.
Fly had the idea of putting a bend on the arms. This makes takes the bad alignment, and spreads it over 3 points, rather than just 2. It makes the problem look slightly better but it solves nothing. It also drops the cables further away from the frame which give it a droopy, saggy look.
Bent brake arms dont solve the alignment issue with seat stay brake, but I guess they dont make it any worse.
Deep breath ..... Deep breaths ...... :LolLolLolLol:
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ah i see what your saying.
its a wonder somebodys not done something by now................................or am i starting you off again :D
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They have done something ...... they all stopped using brakes!! :LolLolLolLol:
Or they got a custom made frame with chain stay brake mounts ::)
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Although.......
What we're talking about here are engineering observations and solutions; degrees of perfection. Breaking a lug off aside, we can live long and happy lives (apart from Captain Chainstay over there...) with our brakes mounted upstairs or downstairs, just so long as they're set up properly. Truth is, brakes can be so good with a little tweaking that they become too good, if you catch my drift. No feel or progression unless you have a bloody good trigger finger.
New cable nicely lubed, avoid a gyro unless you really want one, very clean lugs so the arms are as free as a bird on them and lubed with grease or copperslip. Whatever pads Stodgy tells you will work with your rims, and not too much tension on the springs - don't be tempted to crank them round, usually a 1/4 of a turn or less will do once you've taken up the slack. The stiffer the spring tension, the harder the lever. Just dial in enough so the brakes snaps nicely back off the rim.
Jobs a good 'un ;)
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- don't be tempted to crank them round, usually a 1/4 of a turn or less will do once you've taken up the slack. The stiffer the spring tension, the harder the lever. Just dial in enough so the brakes snaps nicely back off the rim.
Jobs a good 'un ;)
this is one of the first things i learnt about new school brakes, from Rob, and i still turned up at Creation with a lousy back brake. I had barely 1/4 turn on and it was too much. (this came from hastily finishing putting my bike back together in time to ride) Now I have just enough tension to move the blocks away from the rim and that's it, it nearly, very nearly feels as good as Alex's.....but it'll never be that good on account of mine being on the seat stays eh? lol.
Alex makes a good point about the cable routing, where my inner exits the outer at the top tube cable stop it is instanly forced at an angle towards the brake arms so the inner is always rubbing on the outer at an angle. I have seen angled cable stops on some frames but I don't have the balls to try to bend mine to suit......but if i never move my seat post i could drill through the seat tube, and post and put a stop in there right? mmmm maybe i won't. lol.
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degrees of perfection. We can live long and happy lives with our brakes mounted upstairs or downstairs, just so long as they're set up properly
For sure Rob, for sure. Im splitting hairs here, a well set up Ubrake works .... WELL!
It just winds me up when stuff is designed with an inbuilt flaw, for no reason.
(apart from Captain Chainstay over there...)
:LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol:
Love you Rob ;)
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For fear of people thinking Im looking for problems where there are non, I’ve grabbed some pics of rear brakes that help make my point.
Pic 1
Seat stay brake/top tube cable stop: 2, big points of direction change.
A lower standover height and an angled cable stop will help reduce this.
Angled brake arms make NO difference. They sometimes even reduce the problem at the brake, but increase it at the downtube.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r313/alexleech/01Seatstay.jpg)
Pic 2
Chainstay brake, downtube cable stop: 2 points of direction change, but not as bad.
Angled brake arms do make this neater, but only because it takes some of the direction change and builds it into the brake arm. The miss alignment is still there.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r313/alexleech/02Chainstay1.jpg)
Pic 3
Chainstay brake, seat tube cable stop: 1, tiny point of direction change, but only cos there is a limit to how low you can drill the seat tube. A less low-profile brake would make it better, but then it might hit the chain.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/r313/alexleech/03Chainstay2.jpg)
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3 very good pics to illustrate there Al.
First pic of my gold S&M - I HATE HATE HATE the angle of that cable. Iwished I'd rememebred to ask for chainstay lugs. OI may actually have that frame's lugs moved by a frame builder.
Second pic - my Black S&M - I love this brake set up. the cable angle is no where near perfect, but better than the gold bike, and the reason I didnt go for the hole in the seattube is ... read on...
Third Pic - your blue S&M. I love the tidiness of the set up and cable line - but I hate sorking on brakes that have bugger all room for a spanner / allen key and my hands - it's all crammed into that little area . Plus Ive never liked frame tuibes with holes drilled in.
But that said - the cable line is the best on that set up.
There. Sorted.
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man...I'd hate to see it when Alex DOES get involved! :LolLolLolLol:
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Heres something i made in the late 90's.
Worked really well.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/ee309/biggeorgebike/cid_002601c820cc1c4face076cd4254Big.jpg)
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the reason alexs brakes work so well cos he weighs 3st 4lb
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Oh the debates over break positioning !!!!!!!!!
Here's my 2p's worth.
On my previous frame Mirraco Blend I had chainstay lugs and using a Demolition Vulcan brake I could run 25/9.
On my current frame Proper TTL I have seatstay lugs and use the same brake.
To be honest theres not any difference in braking power or feel but I much prefered the chainstay lugs, I run a gyro and I just prefer the clean look of a chainstay mounted brake when running a gyro cable on the bottom.
The secret is how you set up your brakes !!!!!!!!
Setting up brakes is like GOOD SEX !!! Lots of Lubrication and Patience :2funny:
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Captain chainstay :2funny:
that ones gunna stick ;D
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Heres something i made in the late 90's.
Worked really well.
Hey, Ive just made something very similar to that. Im going to give it ago soon, at the same time as putting a gyro on (for the first time in a few years).
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I've got one of those posh Oddy GTX-R gyros (I think that's what it's called). Nice thing, better than the rattly standard jobbies.
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Captain Chainstay, Now say it in a Captain Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveman style :LolLolLolLol:
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Heres something i made in the late 90's.
Worked really well.
Hey, Ive just made something very similar to that. Im going to give it ago soon, at the same time as putting a gyro on (for the first time in a few years).
I made something like that years ago too, but mine was more like a wider brake b'stard/london mod though, bolted through the seattube hole, long ago when brakes were on the chainstays :LolLolLolLol:
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Captain chainstay :2funny:
that ones gunna stick ;D
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/a253/the1carper/Captain20Charisma.jpg)
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I KNEW I should have stayed out of this thread! :LolLolLolLol:
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3 very good pics to illustrate there Al.
First pic of my gold S&M - I HATE HATE HATE the angle of that cable. Iwished I'd rememebred to ask for chainstay lugs. OI may actually have that frame's lugs moved by a frame builder.
Second pic - my Black S&M - I love this brake set up. the cable angle is no where near perfect, but better than the gold bike, and the reason I didnt go for the hole in the seattube is ... read on...
Third Pic - your blue S&M. I love the tidiness of the set up and cable line - but I hate sorking on brakes that have bugger all room for a spanner / allen key and my hands - it's all crammed into that little area . Plus Ive never liked frame tuibes with holes drilled in.
But that said - the cable line is the best on that set up.
There. Sorted.
with regards to pic 1 you could just have a threaded cable stop which drops a couple of mm lower then the current one and welded a little further up the toptube and grind off the one on there already.. the straddle cable may look a little different but will be straighter than shown and will work better.
this was my suelo i welded brake lugs onto
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/q14/dennydyer/DSC00148-1.jpg)
and with a lowered and angled cable stop/adjuster. brake worked a treat-fly seatstay brake i think. shame i didnt get on with the frame so its bare again and banished to the spare room.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/q14/dennydyer/DSC00197-1.jpg)
back on my dolomite again now and with the fly angled brake its not perfect alignment but with the radbmx 'geese scream'-lol clear brake pads it still stops on a dime.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/q14/dennydyer/myretroharo88styledolomitesept2010019.jpg)