RADBMX.CO.UK
Mid School BMX (>87) 1989 to 2003 (<05) => Mid School ( Keep the faith ) => Topic started by: stidds on February 22, 2014, 08:35 AM
-
OK so many a discussion has been made about the midschool date.
I am putting this out for a one time decision about how the midschool guys want the midschool date.
Firstly I want to have some ideas about how it should be run and then I will put up a vote.
This vote will be the last time we ever have this discussion so please take it seriously as after this decision any threads or posts about it will be deleted without notice.
Now there are many options, it can stay as it is i.e. a year start and end, that year start can be anything you want 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990 etc. It can a decade i.e 1990-2000 (the 90's), it can be the old school racing rules 1" headset and caliper brake etc etc.
The choice is 100% yours.
Please think about the conotations (sp) of any start date etc as somebody mentioned to me that it should be the 90's however you have cross over bikes like Auburn, GT etc that have the same model in 1989 as they do in 1990, you would then have the argument of why should my 1989 Auburn be classed as oldschool but somebody elses 1990 classed as midschool.
It has to have a start and finish date as we need to be able to define the 'school' for Show and Shine competitions.
So fire away, let me see your ideas and lets put this to bed.
-
I've always said the start should be 89 for freestyle bikes, the start of the bashy era.
The end for me would be when the bottom bracket changed from being an American type on most of the bmx,s, whenever that happened? Mid 2000's? :daumenhoch:
Part of me also thinks that mid should be split into early mid and late mid, so from 89-97ish from the bashy era to the start of the aheadset era for early mid and late mid from 97 the aheadset era to when the bottom bracket started to change from a pretty much bog standard American one.
The thing is, this question will keep popping up more and more as midschool is becoming very collectable now, it's good that this debate is getting tackled early.
To be honest in the midschool period there was so many changes it was unreal, for me the progression throughout this period was pretty amazing, but I guess that was down to the rider owned companies coming up with stuff that actually worked. :4_17_5: but how can you put an 89 bike against one from the mid 2000's they are both so far apart it is unreal. But equally both are lovely and technically from the same era.
I would like to throw another suggestion into the pot as well, when did new school begin? And we should be the first forum to rename new school as in another 20 years new school isn't going to be new anymore. So what name should we give to new school stuff? :daumenhoch:
-
1989 - 1999 I class as mid school :)
But everyone has their own opinions on dates
Sean I think you've just opened a new can of worms AGAIN :LolLolLolLol:
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
That is my favourite Ed, that way we are not limiting ourselves to a 'school' or era, simpy put a bike in the year it is from.
As I said though you will get issues with (for example) and 89 Auburn being judged in S&S against a 1980 Cook Bros, Torker etc which will get people moaning.
I just want everybody to be on the same side and singing from the same song sheet.
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
This - deffo. There's too much crossover I reckon in the later 80's and post 2001ish to put a bike into either school tbh, and I think this'll be the easiest crowd pleasing way to do it.
Also (and this is gonna sound mega ghey) 'Mid School' wasn't just about a start date *runs off muttering it's a state of mind man* ;D
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
That is my favourite Ed, that way we are not limiting ourselves to a 'school' or era, simpy put a bike in the year it is from.
As I said though you will get issues with (for example) and 89 Auburn being judged in S&S against a 1980 Cook Bros, Torker etc which will get people moaning.
I just want everybody to be on the same side and singing from the same song sheet.
Its a bold move to do what you've done Sean ... and nothing will ever satisfy everyone ... but if we get a consensus then thats as good as it gets :daumenhoch:
-
The decades is a good idea, fook all the schools off. :4_17_5:
-
at last - dord's order, invented in a flash of genius by a man apparently with the name dordymunch, and observed and analysed by bmxologist Rod Rodruigez, finally gets the recognition it deserves! :slayer:
or we could change the categories every year ..... to keep the topic alive lol :popcorn:
-
Ooh fook, every yeah, now that is a good shout! :LolLolLolLol:
-
at last - dord's order, invented in a flash of genius by a man apparently with the name dordymunch, and observed and analysed by bmxologist Rod Rodruigez, finally gets the recognition it deserves! :slayer:
or we could change the categories every year ..... to keep the topic alive lol :popcorn:
So that would be the way I set the sections up initially when we launched the new site and people moaned about eh? Fooking Dord's order my arse.
-
I think Ed's gave you your answer Sean, it will take some argument to beat common sense, that's why I'm thinking it probably was Dordys initial idea haha
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
That is my favourite Ed, that way we are not limiting ourselves to a 'school' or era, simpy put a bike in the year it is from.
As I said though you will get issues with (for example) and 89 Auburn being judged in S&S against a 1980 Cook Bros, Torker etc which will get people moaning.
I just want everybody to be on the same side and singing from the same song sheet.
This would be best :daumenhoch:
there is always going to be someone who isnt happy, for show and shine purposes why not use the categories above then have 2 sub categories
so overall 80's winner is ..........
then best pre 85 bike...
and best post 85 bike...
no need for a expensive prize just some thing small to acknowledge each sub categories
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
That is my favourite Ed, that way we are not limiting ourselves to a 'school' or era, simpy put a bike in the year it is from.
As I said though you will get issues with (for example) and 89 Auburn being judged in S&S against a 1980 Cook Bros, Torker etc which will get people moaning.
I just want everybody to be on the same side and singing from the same song sheet.
This would be best :daumenhoch:
there is always going to be someone who isnt happy, for show and shine purposes why not use the categories above then have 2 sub categories
so overall 80's winner is ..........
then best pre 85 bike...
and best post 85 bike...
no need for a expensive prize just some thing small to acknowledge each sub categories
Fooking hell Kev, we are trying to make things simpler mate not more complicated :LolLolLolLol:
Great ideas guys keep them coming and then we can think about the 'answer'. There is no rush and no time limit,
I just want this sorted and after that we can all sit back and
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/v518/stidds/stfu.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/stidds/media/stfu.jpg.html)
-
just go with the decades sean,think its the most common sense option,like others say you won't please everybody "nono"
fooking minefield mid school :LolLolLolLol:
-
So that would be the way I set the sections up initially when we launched the new site and people moaned about eh? Fooking Dord's order my arse.
really? :chin: LOL, i guess the time was't ripe for this then
-
So that would be the way I set the sections up initially when we launched the new site and people moaned about eh? Fooking Dord's order my arse.
really? :chin: LOL, i guess the time was't ripe for this then
I am ahead of my time :LolLolLolLol:
-
the whole 'school' thing is over really... in 84 my DP was new school / in 2033 my Supercross will be old school ;D
just go with the decades and let people call their bikes what they like :daumenhoch:
70s
80s
90s
00s
10s
That is my favourite Ed, that way we are not limiting ourselves to a 'school' or era, simpy put a bike in the year it is from.
As I said though you will get issues with (for example) and 89 Auburn being judged in S&S against a 1980 Cook Bros, Torker etc which will get people moaning.
I just want everybody to be on the same side and singing from the same song sheet.
This would be best :daumenhoch:
there is always going to be someone who isnt happy, for show and shine purposes why not use the categories above then have 2 sub categories
so overall 80's winner is ..........
then best pre 85 bike...
and best post 85 bike...
no need for a expensive prize just some thing small to acknowledge each sub categories
Fooking hell Kev, we are trying to make things simpler mate not more complicated :LolLolLolLol:
Great ideas guys keep them coming and then we can think about the 'answer'. There is no rush and no time limit,
I just want this sorted and after that we can all sit back and
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/v518/stidds/stfu.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/stidds/media/stfu.jpg.html)
its not rocket science ffs :LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol:
just tell everyone this is what it is and thats that!!!!!!
its bmx for ffs!! go ride em!!!!!!!
this is why i never went to car shows :LolLolLolLol: :LolLolLolLol:
-
I think the decades thing is a good idea, as Ed said......a new school bike that was bought a year or too ago, cant be classed as new school in twenty years time. The current classification really only applies to a time span of say 40 odd year and doesnt account for anything outside of that.
But youll always have another arguement arise at MK if for example... Somebody owns an 89 and a 90 Master, which are essentially the same frame....and they then have to be split up into two seperate tents ;D
-
I agree with gish, 89 - 99 for forum ballparking. Show n shine should be down to the individual deciding what class they think their bike fits best to, an 88 GT same model as a 91 GT should be judged as mid. Common sense and knowledge should prevail when entering or judging any completion, a couple of years either way if the models are the same as older or newer dates should be irrelevant, we all should know what we are looking at :)
-
I agree with gish, 89 - 99 for forum ballparking. Show n shine should be down to the individual deciding what class they think their bike fits best to, an 88 GT same model as a 91 GT should be judged as mid. Common sense and knowledge should prevail when entering or judging any completion, a couple of years either way if the models are the same as older or newer dates should be irrelevant, we all should know what we are looking at :)
That would work if there was any common sense, but there isn't. We do need a definate on this as believe me Show and Shine judging is hard work and made even harder if the judges have to start moving stuff around also this wouldn't go down well with somebody who put their 88 GT in oldschool just to see a judge decide it was midschool.
-
I don't know why this is specifically in the mid-school section, for example, the end of vintage and the beginning of old school is also a huge grey area in my opinion.
I can see what people are saying about whole 'schools' thing meaningless but thats just the way it is, the hobby developed out of a group of people having an interest in 'old school' bmx which to us was the golden age of BMX what came before and after has just been tacked on and I think we are stuck with them and overtime the parameters will change, nothing should be set in stone.
I'd go for:-
Vintage Pre 79ish
Old School 80ish - 89ish
Mid-school 90ish - 04ish
New School 05ish on
There will be cross overs and it's up to the entrant and the organisers to sort it out sensibly, using criteria like year the model was introduced and then the year the model was changed, for example 1988 Haro Master is old school 1989 Haro Master bashguard is mid school.
Using decades is the easy way out but it's also meaningless and lacks sole ignoring how the hobby came about in the first place.
Please just use the classifications for the S&S and let the forum continue the way it does with things finding their place.
FFS don't listen to Ed he's been harranging people in the mid school section put tan wall tyres on bikes that really should have black walls because of his black wall phobia :LolLolLolLol:
-
i see what you mean - interesting :coolsmiley:-, but if one follwed this, we would have to agree on the periods. So what's the 89ish and 04ish devides' reasons for then?
That, and secondly ......what's in future, NS just goes on and on from 05ish ..with subcats emerging....? like f.ex New SchoolII from 12 on just as an example...? Like that?
-
See how confusing it is for us?
None of you have agreed at all on anything, but something has to be agreed on.
We have to have definitive dates as that is the way we run things.
This is why I want some kind of decision to be made by you guys as this is the how we will be running the site. If all the other 'schools' can be happy with pre 80's, 80-86 (as it is at the moment) etc then midschool better make a decision too.
-
89 - 96 id say for me being 36 ..
-
ok i have to go now, but i just wanted to suggest you all suggest THE major technical defining starting point for the MS and NS periods.
Example: 1'' headsets for New School.
Sean said before that there are also 1994 1'' headsets .........but one can argue that there is a later date where that became mainstream and then settle for that date as NS starting point.
-
i see what you mean - interesting :coolsmiley:-, but if one follwed this, we would have to agree on the periods. So what's the 89ish and 04ish devides' reasons for then?
That, and secondly ......what's in future, NS just goes on and on from 05ish ..with subcats emerging....? like f.ex New SchoolII from 12 on just as an example...? Like that?
89ish - Bashys introduced I'm being guided on this by what others are saying I would have said they were old school personally I would be more in favour of 90ish and the advent of the rider owned companies DBI, Hoffman etc.
04ish - US BB phased out, freewheels phased out in favour of cassette and introdution of micro gearing, 48h to 36h, movement towards light and strong as opposed to heavy and strong.
See how confusing it is for us?
None of you have agreed at all on anything, but something has to be agreed on.
We have to have definitive dates as that is the way we run things.
This is why I want some kind of decision to be made by you guys as this is the how we will be running the site. If all the other 'schools' can be happy with pre 80's, 80-86 (as it is at the moment) etc then midschool better make a decision too.
I see there is a problem but it can't be difinitive around years IMO where the schools are concerned.
Old school didn't stop in 86,"golden age" of BMX finished in the UK around 86 but old school carried on, I'm 44 this year it stopped for me around 86/87, my brother is 40 it stopped for him around 89/90.
-
Do it by weight, if the tubes are like scaffold poles and you struggle to pick it up.....it's Mid school ;)
-
I see there is a problem but it can't be difinitive around years IMO where the schools are concerned.
Old school didn't stop in 86,"golden age" of BMX finished in the UK around 86 but old school carried on, I'm 44 this year it stopped for me around 86/87, my brother is 40 it stopped for him around 89/90.
And there we have the problem, different ages for different people, however we have to finalise it I'm afraid. I have my site adminstrator hat on here and as a site we NEED to find a way of making sure we know what we are talking about.
Leaving it open to interpretation just isn't going to work, so what I need is for you guys to make some kind of decision about it, I know we are not going to get a 100% happy date/era/school etc but I am happy with a 80% happy one.
This is why I lean toward the 70s, 80s, 90's, 00's, 10's etc as we are only categorising a bike in its year/decade nothing about the 'school' it belongs to.
Of course there are some cross over bikes, but even then a 1989 is an 80's bike and a 1990 is a 90's bike, even if it is the same make and model, if it was built in a year it is very hard to say it doesn't belong to a particular decade.
-
Totally agree with the above.
My opinion differs to others on this thread (I'd be all over 87-2001 if I had to say a date for me), but am fully aware that there's bikes made into the early 1990's that would still come under an 'old school' classification. There's bikes such as the S&M K9 or Mad Dog that are 87-89 that should technically be classified 'mid-school' for the rider owned reason alone.
The one inch caliper debates a bit moot as well as with bikes such as a WAL Riot sans lugs, or the all time classic mid icon the 1" lugless 1989-1994 Dirt Bike.
I'd be waaay happier with the decades, although if this is about the show and shine it won't effect me :LolLolLolLol:
-
I don't think anybody could be arsed to take on this task, BUT...since bikes are classed on the frame and little else, I suggest classing each frame model as either Mid or Old school regardless of year.
Then there'd be a reference list for everything to be classed more accurately, based on peoples votes for each model.
I just ate a giant Galaxy bar :D
-
90's= mid school
-
I don't know why this is specifically in the mid-school section, for example, the end of vintage and the beginning of old school is also a huge grey area in my opinion.
I can see what people are saying about whole 'schools' thing meaningless but thats just the way it is, the hobby developed out of a group of people having an interest in 'old school' bmx which to us was the golden age of BMX what came before and after has just been tacked on and I think we are stuck with them and overtime the parameters will change, nothing should be set in stone.
I'd go for:-
Vintage Pre 79ish
Old School 80ish - 89ish
Mid-school 90ish - 04ish
New School 05ish on
There will be cross overs and it's up to the entrant and the organisers to sort it out sensibly, using criteria like year the model was introduced and then the year the model was changed, for example 1988 Haro Master is old school 1989 Haro Master bashguard is mid school.
Using decades is the easy way out but it's also meaningless and lacks sole ignoring how the hobby came about in the first place.
Please just use the classifications for the S&S and let the forum continue the way it does with things finding their place.
FFS don't listen to Ed he's been harranging people in the mid school section put tan wall tyres on bikes that really should have black walls because of his black wall phobia :LolLolLolLol:
harranging PMSL ;D ;D ;D
-
90's :daumenhoch:
-
Old school = 1inch threaded headset, caliper only brake and pre 2000, everything else is contemporary BMX, until the next major change in design n tech outdates what at present recognised as the norm
and anyway, does it reeeeeeeally fookin matter as long as you can find what yer lookin for :)
i meant 1 1/8th of course :-[
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vintage 72-79 (1972="On Any Sunday")
OS 80-88 (1inch threaded headset, caliper only brake)
Mid School 89-04ish (89= Bashguards) (rider owned companies)
New School 04ish-present (04ish="US BB phased out, freewheels phased out in favour of cassette and introdution of micro gearing, 48h to 36h, movement towards light and strong as opposed to heavy and strong.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i kinda like the idea of categories set around points of time where innovations broke through.
I do like the simplicity of the decade-idea and the fact that this corresponds with the 'experience'; but these categories really should be more about the bikes themselves..........
Can we agree on the timetable above? I guess its worth elaborating.
-
Old school = 1inch threaded headset, caliper only brake and pre 2000, everything else is contemporary BMX, until the next major change in design n tech outdates what at present recognised as the norm
and anyway, does it reeeeeeeally fookin matter as long as you can find what yer lookin for :)
i meant 1 1/8th of course :-[
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vintage 72-79 (1972="On Any Sunday")
OS 80-88 (1inch threaded headset, caliper only brake)
Mid School 89-04ish (89= Bashguards)
New School 04ish-present (04ish="US BB phased out, freewheels phased out in favour of cassette and introdution of micro gearing, 48h to 36h, movement towards light and strong as opposed to heavy and strong.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i kinda like the idea of categories set around points of time where innovations broke through.
I do like the simplicity of the decade-idea and the fact that this corresponds with the 'experience'; but these categories really should be more about the bikes themselves..........
Can we agree on the timetable above? I guess its worth elaborating.
i would agree with these dates. to be a little more specific, mid school began on 6th of june 1989. FACT ::)
-
Mid school in my opinion ended with Mid BBs and intergrated headsets
Old school in my opinion ended with U brakes.
There will always be crossover periods, there will always be the pioneers of improvements.
BMX has always been evolving, It will always be evolving.
If you want me to pick years then
Vintage upto 79/80
Old school 80/81 to 88/89
Mid school 89/90 to 02/03
I have a 2001 FBM Night Train, I class that as Mid school, US Bottom bracket and press fit headset cups.
You are never going to please everyone :)
-
hm...ad lugs .........when did they become popular standard? .....perhaps really more defining than Bashguards?
i would agree with these dates. to be a little more specific, mid school began on 6th of june 1989. FACT ::)
that will then just be entered into the timetable.............. we're like wiki ;D
-
hm...ad lugs .........when did they become popular standard? .....perhaps really more defining than Bashguards?
First appeared in 1987 on bmxs. Not popular until around 1994/5 (as in there weren't a crap load at parks back then until those years) :daumenhoch:
-
Mid = 1990's. That's it.
-
yeah.... The ad lugs example, cheers Danny, shows the problem. AD lugs might be more defining, but that date 1994/95 just makes things more complicated. So you'd settle for Bashguards, just for the sake of 'innovation'-basedness, because it's closer to 1990.
Also the problem arises -been said before-: innovations aren't regular -> different sized groups, making the competition unnecessarily random, unfair...
-
Exactly Fisch - I reckon for show and shine purposes, separate into decades. Forum wise just leave the mid school dates blank and increase Old School to '89. That way all them there S&M MDs/DB's and so on from the late 80's can still go in Mid etc.
The 'BMX Dark Ages' was more what was going on in freestyle and rider owned companies than if ya bike had lugs/1 1/8" headset etc.
-
Ffs 90's end off!
-
Is this purely for the S&S or will the titles of the sections be changed too?
Last time we had this debate the point was made that the people using the mid section are happy enough the way it is and I reckon that still stands, the longer this thread goes on the less likely that's going to be the case, it's the best mid-school section on the interweb and now it's just being ruined.
If moderators or judges don't know what section a BMX should be in maybe they are in the wrong role.
Take the years off the sections on the site and do the S&S at milton keynes using decades, job done. :daumenhoch:
-
Is this purely for the S&S or will the titles of the sections be changed too?
Last time we had this debate the point was made that the people using the mid section are happy enough the way it is and I reckon that still stands, the longer this thread goes on the less likely that's going to be the case, it's the best mid-school section on the interweb and now it's just being ruined.
If moderators or judges don't know what section a BMX should be in maybe they are in the wrong role.
Take the years off the sections on the site and do the S&S at milton keynes using decades, job done. :daumenhoch:
Well you are 100% wrong, people are obviously not happy with the way it is as everybody keeps bitching about it.
So instead of saying that is the way things are I am saying you guys decide.
This is not just for S&S and MK the sections on radbmx, the BOTM, BOTY etc will all run this way with the dates/eras/schools/decades etc.
To add a little snidey remark about judges and moderators makes me want to say fook you all and I will decide.
We are asked time and time again to let the members make more decisions about the way the site is run and I put this really important item out there and all you can do is make a narky comment about people that spend a lot of time and effort on running this site and MK.
I am not leaving the dates open for people to decide themselves as a site admin we need and require a decision, if you cannot help with that decision then there is no need to comment or join in.
So to the rest of you, lets have your ideas and solutions.
-
Is this purely for the S&S or will the titles of the sections be changed too?
Last time we had this debate the point was made that the people using the mid section are happy enough the way it is and I reckon that still stands, the longer this thread goes on the less likely that's going to be the case, it's the best mid-school section on the interweb and now it's just being ruined.
If moderators or judges don't know what section a BMX should be in maybe they are in the wrong role.
Take the years off the sections on the site and do the S&S at milton keynes using decades, job done. :daumenhoch:
Well you are 100% wrong, people are obviously not happy with the way it is as everybody keeps bitching about it.
So instead of saying that is the way things are I am saying you guys decide.
This is not just for S&S and MK the sections on radbmx, the BOTM, BOTY etc will all run this way with the dates/eras/schools/decades etc.
To add a little snidey remark about judges and moderators makes me want to say fook you all and I will decide.
We are asked time and time again to let the members make more decisions about the way the site is run and I put this really important item out there and all you can do is make a narky comment about people that spend a lot of time and effort on running this site and MK.
I am not leaving the dates open for people to decide themselves as a site admin we need and require a decision, if you cannot help with that decision then there is no need to comment or join in.
So to the rest of you, lets have your ideas and solutions.
I've tried to make a decent contribution to the subject and back it up with reasons to justify my suggestion as opposed to just feelings.
I wasn't making a snidey remark about the moderators/judges which was meant as a jibe I was making a serious point.
-
Sean-do you think we could lose the "it's a bit dark and smells of men" most of my stuff is of the era in discussion but it pi55es me off every time I read it!
Cheers
Miles
-
I would like to suggest:-
Vintage = Early 70's - September 1979
Old = October 1979 - September 1989
Mid = October 1989 - September 2003
New = October 2003 - Present
:daumenhoch:
-
Is this purely for the S&S or will the titles of the sections be changed too?
Last time we had this debate the point was made that the people using the mid section are happy enough the way it is and I reckon that still stands, the longer this thread goes on the less likely that's going to be the case, it's the best mid-school section on the interweb and now it's just being ruined.
If moderators or judges don't know what section a BMX should be in maybe they are in the wrong role.
Take the years off the sections on the site and do the S&S at milton keynes using decades, job done. :daumenhoch:
Well you are 100% wrong, people are obviously not happy with the way it is as everybody keeps bitching about it.
So instead of saying that is the way things are I am saying you guys decide.
This is not just for S&S and MK the sections on radbmx, the BOTM, BOTY etc will all run this way with the dates/eras/schools/decades etc.
To add a little snidey remark about judges and moderators makes me want to say fook you all and I will decide.
We are asked time and time again to let the members make more decisions about the way the site is run and I put this really important item out there and all you can do is make a narky comment about people that spend a lot of time and effort on running this site and MK.
I am not leaving the dates open for people to decide themselves as a site admin we need and require a decision, if you cannot help with that decision then there is no need to comment or join in.
So to the rest of you, lets have your ideas and solutions.
I've tried to make a decent contribution to the subject and back it up with reasons to justify my suggestion as opposed to just feelings.
I wasn't making a snidey remark about the moderators/judges which was meant as a jibe I was making a serious point.
Well it was a snidey remark, mods and admin do a lot of work on site and we need to know something about everything. We are not in such a position to know a lot about a small subject.
Let me tell you about judging S&S at MK, I have done it twice and the last time it took me and the other judges 4 hours to go around every bike and find winners, runners up etc etc.
That is 4 hours that I didn't spend with my bikes, mates, wife, racing, having fun, I (and the other 3 of us) spent those 4 hours walking around in searing heat putting a load of time and effort into making sure people were rewarded for their efforts.
Not to mention the other 30 jobs I had to do that day apart from judge the S&S.
So to say that judges/mods should know what bikes go where when you guys that build the bikes don't even seem to know is a smack in the face. Judges on the day have better things to do than to sort out the mess that is midschool.
To be honest at this rate I will be doing one of two things with the midschool section... 1) keep it as it is and delete any mention of date and era in the future with no notice or apology or 2) delete the whole section and call everything old school.
At present I am leaning toward option 2.
-
Sean-do you think we could lose the "it's a bit dark and smells of men" most of my stuff is of the era in discussion but it pi55es me off every time I read it!
Cheers
Miles
I completely agree Miles, I have never liked that comment.
Changed now.
-
So much better now! Cheers Sean, late 80's mid school era ftw!
-
rod, i don't get why it would be ruined.....
You said
"Old school didn't stop in 86,"golden age" of BMX finished in the UK around 86 but old school carried on, I'm 44 this year it stopped for me around 86/87, my brother is 40 it stopped for him around 89/90."
...so it can't really be the change that those '87-'89 bikes that would in future be counted into an OS section, that would ruin it for you...? .....or is it more those '00-02 bikes that would be 'NS' in the future that would ruin it? OK, that would be 3 years missing, 3 years of bikes that in your account should continuously be counted into MS..?
I don't think the whole section will be reorganised, rather only the dates in the header changed, so that the final difference would be for you that those 3 years would have to looked for in another folder........ hey, cmon ;)
But i don't know - maybe that cost of having consistent cats (MK with the rad sections) really is too high regarding the end date of MS that we have at present (2001)/ or that you suggested ('03/04).
If radbmx finds that 2001 or 2004 bikes should really be Mid School, then we would have one category with a (relatively) bigger number of entrants. I dunno .... sowhat?
THe point i'm tryin to make is that your suggestion of NS start-date (2004) doesn't have to be dismissed only cause it's hard to find a fool proof technical reason for setting MS to 1989. ...... Its a question of elaborating those reasons and then of weighing them.
-
Without sounding like a crawly bumlick I appreciate the job every bugger does on here - more so that there's a site to post on and run in an unbiased way and in general with a good sense of humour :daumenhoch:
Pleeeeeeeease el-Stid-a-dor don't go for option 2 :4_17_5:
-
To be honest at this rate I will be doing one of two things with the midschool section... 1) keep it as it is and delete any mention of date and era in the future with no notice or apology or 2) delete the whole section and call everything old school.
At present I am leaning toward option 2.
Crikey, If you think us mid schoolers are a bunch of moaners, wait until a bunch of "90's tat" is dumped into the old school section. :LolLolLolLol: Then you will see a proper uproar. :2funny:
Just to throw my few pennies into the debate (because you all know I love to). If we use technology to determine eras, and Bash guards are a big enough innovation to usher in a new era (mid school from old school), how is it that threadless headsets (arguably the biggest innovation since 3pc cranks before it) doesn't issue in the start of another era as well (for example new school)? Thats a genuine question by the way haha. What innovation is big enough to warrant a era change?
-
New school can clearly be defined by frames all looking the same ;D .....although I do love new school :daumenhoch:
The only real differences between new school stuff are minute angle differences and a lack of imagination for eye candy. Mid school would definitely be defined at the start by the innovative bashguards that brought in new riding styles. But then there was the 1st gen Havok sprocket pockets that were mounted on Skyway TA's by Dirt Bro's.....what year was that?
-
rod, i don't get why it would be ruined.....
You said
"Old school didn't stop in 86,"golden age" of BMX finished in the UK around 86 but old school carried on, I'm 44 this year it stopped for me around 86/87, my brother is 40 it stopped for him around 89/90."
...so it can't really be the change that those '87-'89 bikes that would in future be counted into an OS section, that would ruin it for you...? .....or is it more those '00-02 bikes that would be 'NS' in the future that would ruin it? OK, that would be 3 years missing, 3 years of bikes that in your account should continuously be counted into MS..?
I don't think the whole section will be reorganised, rather only the dates in the header changed, so that the final difference would be for you that those 3 years would have to looked for in another folder........ hey, cmon ;)
Flo
At the moment there are bikes in the MS section that are anywhere from 87 to 04, anyone that uses the section doesn't seem to mind as they know why they are in there, an 88 dirt bike is mid school an 88 master is old school, move the year back to 87 and S&M becomes old school.
Once the section has been allocated specific years it will be moderated and posts that don't fit the year criteria will be moved out and other bikes that meet the year criteria will be moved in although they don't fit mid school (depending on your opinion of course).
-
So is 93' the start of new school? This was when the 1st 1 1/8 bmx from Standard was born??
By the way Sean, I think mid school and for that matter new school, old school and vintage....er...school are daft terminologies, the date the bikes were sold is the reference pont for me.
-
Rod, but before you opted more for a 90ish MS starting date..... Or was that only for the S&S....?
If its only the finding of one's bike .......i'm not sure if the mods will be arsed to reallocate all past entries anyway...... then it surely wouldn't be THE problem you would be concerned about. Your problem was rather having cats that don't make sense, right?
I argued above that you may be right about the MS ending 2003/2004.
-
Rod, but before you opted more for a 90ish MS starting date..... Or was that only for the S&S....?
If its only the finding of one's bike .......i'm not sure if the mods will be arsed to reallocate all past entries anyway...... then it surely wouldn't be THE problem.
That was just an example Flo, I'm only in favour of years where worthy exceptions are allowed, so I'd say 1990 but would include S&M as a rider owned company in the MS section.
-
i'was going to say that anyway - obvious exceptions should/could be made .......
But still we have to 'vote' about the MS exception as a whole ........that it would be a longer period than the other cats.
I'm to dumb to know the reasons for when MS should end and NS should start.
...meaning perhaps the innovation-based reasons could hold in THIS case
Rod:
"04ish="US BB phased out, freewheels phased out in favour of cassette and introdution of micro gearing, 48h to 36h, movement towards light and strong as opposed to heavy and strong."
-
I dunno, but I think the major problem is trying to quantify something that can't be necessarily quantified precisely by a date range. Like the ol'Digg's saying he goes on the date when a bike/component is made for a reference point. The term mid-school or any school for that matter is sorta defined in essence by the person using the term, so for one person a Mad Dog from '88 would fall into their version of Old School - as the frame itself has a very old school geo feel to it but the buggers got double thick dropouts and a slightly altered headtube angle, whereas to another it'd be the definition of a mid school ride because of those reasons.
We've got the same problem in archaeology, where we use material culture to slot a site into a pre-defined era (like Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age and so on) and use defined dates to mark these eras - but it differs from site to site (and where in the world you are) as to what period the site will eventually fall into. In the end we (in most cases) just use a date to define the site rather than a set period, as say for instance you'll get transition features appearing in an early Bronze Age site that are definitely late Neolithic, and some people will throw a wobbler if you call it Neolithic and others will throw a paddy if you call it Bronze Age.
A similar example to this here is the Roman period on the mainland UK - you'll see in books it says: started 43AD ended in 410AD - but when it comes down to it and you dig a site you can find that a site looks Roman forty odd years before 43AD (mainly in Kent the turncoat toga wearing, grape eating barstewards) or doesn't look Roman by 400AD.
What I'm trying to say is I think splitting the sections into decade is a great idea as what we do here in essence is make things into 'lists' of a sort. But (and it's a MASSIVE but) on the other hand though you'll also end up loosing what makes the sections of this site ace - which is the way people perceive the differing sections - Vintage, Old, Mid and New are all defined by the people who use em and the way they see those particular 'periods' of the site, whether it be hacking round with your mates on a bike that was great for a 6-14 year old, trying to pull stuff on a crappy quarter pipe in your posh mates back garden, launching yourself at a concrete bowl made by people wearing flares, digging jumps in a wood outside of town or trying to find good lines on the stairwell and ledge outside your local town hall.
So in summary after all that fooking beer driven drivel I've just written - maybe just fook off the date range for each section and let peoples perception (which is pretty damn good) of what they define as Vintage, Old, Mid and New define where they post and enter bikes into what category.
I'll shut up now and probably in the cold sober light of day tomorrow realise what I've written is a load of shit :LolLolLolLol:
-
any one not familiar with mid bikes would assume they are all street/freestyle bikes from the comments made so far, anyway, watch joe kidd on a stingray and make a best guess at year mid started from the tone and music change, mid must have started when the big money comps/races dried up and that fat dude was rolling down the street on his back wheel sitting on his headtube. what ever year that was take a year n a half off and that's when midschool started (must've took him 18 months to dial that in :D)
midschool SORTED :police: :daumenhoch:
:LolLolLolLol:
-
i ve had a 2002 bike with 1 inch threaded and a 2009 bike with usa size bb .. i dont think you can use either to define totally .. i would say canti brakes for race bikes was a better definition ..
-
Can I suggest a vote off.
Have one vote off for the start year. I suggest the years 88,89,90
Have another vote off for the finish year. I suggest the years 2002, 2003, 2004.
There will always be debate by the masses :LolLolLolLol:
But Sean is trying to get a line in the sand and needs "help"
Again I believe there will always be overlap periods. You could start Mid at 89 and finish Old at 89 and let the owner decide where they post it/send it for judging :)
-
Here is the definitive ANSWER, no ifs buts maybes...I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THIS CRISIS.....
1987-1990: bikes possessing 1 or more of the following will be categorised "Mid School":
-S&M badge
-Dropouts 4mm or thicker
-Bashguard
I'd imagine few members, myself included, actually know how much work the whole thing requires, nor what resources are actually available so it's difficult to offer help...but I reckon some leeway is needed :daumenhoch:
-
Here is the definitive ANSWER, no ifs buts maybes...I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THIS CRISIS.....
1987-1990: bikes possessing 1 or more of the following will be categorised "Mid School":
-S&M badge
-Dropouts 4mm or thicker
-Bashguard
I'd imagine few members, myself included, actually know how much work the whole thing requires, nor what resources are actually available so it's difficult to offer help...but I reckon some leeway is needed :daumenhoch:
once again, mid school is soley freestyle/street bikes?
a start year n end year vote off is the only way to identify what most would be happy with :)
-
exactly .. not at all .. i think this thread is just making life harder !
-
Can I suggest a vote off.
Have one vote off for the start year. I suggest the years 88,89,90
Have another vote off for the finish year. I suggest the years 2002, 2003, 2004.
There will always be debate by the masses :LolLolLolLol:
But Sean is trying to get a line in the sand and needs "help"
Again I believe there will always be overlap periods. You could start Mid at 89 and finish Old at 89 and let the owner decide where they post it/send it for judging :)
this set up has got to be the best way forward, puts the control in the users hands and the end result is dictated by the majority and taken outa mods n owners hands, job done :daumenhoch:
-
You can tell when old school ended by the introduction of the parts coming along.
Anyone who says their '87 bike is mid school, is an old school wannabe ;D
-
Here is the definitive ANSWER, no ifs buts maybes...I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THIS CRISIS.....
1987-1990: bikes possessing 1 or more of the following will be categorised "Mid School":
-S&M badge
-Dropouts 4mm or thicker
-Bashguard
I'd imagine few members, myself included, actually know how much work the whole thing requires, nor what resources are actually available so it's difficult to offer help...but I reckon some leeway is needed :daumenhoch:
once again, mid school is soley freestyle/street bikes?
a start year n end year vote off is the only way to identify what most would be happy with :)
Surely that's because freestyle bikes dominated the scene during the mid-school years so by your own logic as they were ridden by the majority thats what should be used as a benchmark for the section.
-
Surely that's because freestyle bikes dominated the scene during the mid-school years so by your own logic as they were ridden by the majority thats what should be used as a benchmark for the section.
Agreed - that's not to say though that race bikes have no part in the debate. Lets not further dissolve the debate into a race/freestyle discussion.
Re-read now I'm sober what I posted earlier. Still sort of makes sense.
Personally just fook off the dates for the sections - people know what goes were ffs - there's bikes that are cross-over no matter what date you put on an imagined period for bmx. You either drop the whole 'school' thing and divide by decades or drop the dates for the periods. None of this voting on was it 87,88,89 or 90 ffs.
-
Surely that's because freestyle bikes dominated the scene during the mid-school years so by your own logic as they were ridden by the majority thats what should be used as a benchmark for the section.
Agreed - that's not to say though that race bikes have no part in the debate. Lets not further dissolve the debate into a race/freestyle discussion.
Re-read now I'm sober what I posted earlier. Still sort of makes sense.
Personally just fook off the dates for the sections - people know what goes were ffs - there's bikes that are cross-over no matter what date you put on an imagined period for bmx. You either drop the whole 'school' thing and divide by decades or drop the dates for the periods. None of this voting on was it 87,88,89 or 90 ffs.
As been mentioned before, this would take logic and common sense, its not gonna work on here is it? :LolLolLolLol:
-
How would re-pop parts on an old school frame set be defined?
-
Re-plop
-
How would re-pop parts on an old school frame set be defined?
As re pop old school parts. :LolLolLolLol:
-
How would re-pop parts on an old school frame set be defined?
As re pop old school parts. :LolLolLolLol:
:LolLolLolLol: You know what I meant, classifications etc errr arrr :daumenhoch:
-
I like the cross over idea, so you could have mid starting from 87 and old school finishing at 89. So in those two years you can choose if you think your bike should be in the old school or mid school sections. :daumenhoch:
Then a crossover for mid to new school needs to be worked out. :LolLolLolLol:
-
anything goes .......its either vintage, os, ms or ns. So you yourself decide where you post or enter your bike. Yeah, why not.
And if there's an overload of NS in the show and shine, then just divide into NSI and NSII.
i think we've got it....... :shocked:
-
.....divide by what criteria..? :teef:
-
or, more realistically, same model gets entered into two cats at the show and shine?
-
OK I have stayed away from this thread for 24 hours.
Has anything been decided or are things getting worse?
-
I think Danny kinda solved the debate - easy on the mods, too . Just one or two questions remaining....... ??? Weird that it took us so long to come to this simple solution really.... :crazy2:
-
I think Danny kinda solved the debate - easy on the mods, too . Just one or two questions remaining....... ??? Weird that it took us so long to come to this simple solution really.... :crazy2:
Oh no please don't tell me that after a couple of days of hot (mass)debating, the one voice of reason and logic is Danny :LolLolLolLol:
So what is this amazing idea he has come up with.. oh boy am I looking forward to this ;) :LolLolLolLol:
Sorry Danny, love you really mate :-*
-
First he said smth about bronze age, i was too drunk to read all of it, but then when he woke up he said:
Put your bikes wherever you please ffs.
phenomenological approach i think it's called ;D
-
So this helps me how, put your bikes where you want indeed (although that does sound like Danny).
Just went back to find Danny's bronze age rant ;D, Danny what the fook were you drinking last night mate? I though I was drunk yesterday but fook me I was stone cold sober compared to you :D
The reason why I want something that everybody can (sort of) agree with is that site admin/mods are continually moaned at (honestly we are). This mid-school date thing keeps cropping up so I want it to go away. When it comes to Show and Shine and BOTM/BOTY people are VERY competitive and incredibly bitchy. So when you say put a bike where you want, don't worry about dates etc, can you imagine the shit that will fly around when a bike from 1988 or 2004 that is entered in the midschool S&S category and wins it? The moaning will be so loud you could hear it in deepest outer space as somebody somewhere isn't happy that a 1988 or 2004 bike is midschool. I can actually hear the moaning now!!!!!
I want something I can say..... THIS is how it is on RADBMX, this is how we run things. That way we all know and even though not everyone will 100% agree with the date/era/decade etc at least we can say well we (RADBMX members, not admin) all decided on this and then my life (and all the other admin and mods) will be so, so, so much easier.
-
its either vintage, os, ms or ns. So you yourself decide where you post or enter your bike.
question1: ...if there's an overload of NS in the show and shine, then just divide into NSI and NSII, but by what criteria?
q2: What if the exact same model gets entered into OS and MS (for example)?
-
Answer to q2: Radbmx @ MK decides individually .....no big deal imo.
q1: purely academic at the moment .......this will be the future Midschool debate ;)
-
So this helps me how, put your bikes where you want indeed (although that does sound like Danny).
Just went back to find Danny's bronze age rant ;D, Danny what the fook were you drinking last night mate? I though I was drunk yesterday but fook me I was stone cold sober compared to you :D
The reason why I want something that everybody can (sort of) agree with is that site admin/mods are continually moaned at (honestly we are). This mid-school date thing keeps cropping up so I want it to go away. When it comes to Show and Shine and BOTM/BOTY people are VERY competitive and incredibly bitchy. So when you say put a bike where you want, don't worry about dates etc, can you imagine the shit that will fly around when a bike from 1988 or 2004 that is entered in the midschool S&S category and wins it? The moaning will be so loud you could hear it in deepest outer space as somebody somewhere isn't happy that a 1988 or 2004 bike is midschool. I can actually hear the moaning now!!!!!
I want something I can say..... THIS is how it is on RADBMX, this is how we run things. That way we all know and even though not everyone will 100% agree with the date/era/decade etc at least we can say well we (RADBMX members, not admin) all decided on this and then my life (and all the other admin and mods) will be so, so, so much easier.
You are going to hear moaning even if you put specific years on it because it's pretty clear that Mid-school can't be defined into specific years, it's generally accepted that at either end of the mid school period there are transitional periods when bikes can fall into the previous or the next category.
Reading back through the thread I see the general consensus for the MS section as 89 (including S&M from 87) - 03 which is not a kick in the ass off what it is now and I think it is as close as you are going to get in years.
-
why put dates on schools people probably have a good feeling for?
the technical debate is one for experts ........with all DUE respect, Rod - i know full well that I'm Forrest Gump compared to you when it comes to being in the know of ANY specifics...... (at all, in my case)
But we could have course vote on some date-based vs the school-model......
-
why put dates on schools people probably have a good feeling for?
the technical debate is one for experts in the background ........with all DUE respect, Rod - i know full well that I'm Forrest Gump compared to you when it comes to being in the know of ANY specifics......
But we could have course vote on some date-based vs the school-model......
Now Flo don't you sell yourself short you're no slow coach.
I'm all for having the sections without dates but I can also see the argument for having them for the S&S, BOTM/Y competitions so in that regard I'm only trying to facilitate Stidds original request.
-
let's see what happens ..lol :popcorn:
-
Well let me put it this way to aid (I hope) further discussion.
As a site we need a start and end point so any ideas that involve open start and finish dates are not worth entertaining.
I do see that it is hard to pin that start and finish date down, but we have done that with all the other 'schools' on site without so much as one disenting voice, so now it is your turn.
I am happy to drop the 'school' and go on decades or years, but it must be pinned down somehow by you guys as we will be could be having massive change to the site or a tweek.
It really does depend on what is decided in this thread and voted on when we have something to vote on.
Now as I said I know this will not please everyone, but it is not you that gets moaned at all the time.
-
so still none the wiser then ;D
-
Was some odd Brazilian tequila + some Belgic beers. Had to retype four times (and that's difficult squinting through one eye) ;D
Totally appreciate the S&S is a whole different kettle of fish, and that splitting into decades would be a massive reshuffle.
So - if you do need dates then, use Sens idea for the start - so do it at '89 but allow anything with double drops from 87-88 in on Mid. End of mid - 2003. Job done (after some voting obviously).
Can totally see where you're coming from with the moaning - send 'em my way and I'll dispense a non-sweary rambling response :LolLolLolLol:
-
:LolLolLolLol: :daumenhoch:
-
Some bikes from 2003 the year suggested as the end date.
2003 - 2 Hip Pork http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/31700
2003 - 2 Hip Root Down http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/51765
2003 - S & M Dirtbike XL http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/49112
2003 - S & M Dirtbike http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/15516
2003 - S & M PBR http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/66976
2003 - Hoffman Resistance http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/70997
2003 - Hoffman Rhythm http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/18151
2003 - Hoffman Condor http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/55957
2003 - S & M Neal Wood http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/49244
2003 - S & M Trail Frame http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/72908
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/33547
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/69736
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/55807
Having just the 1990s for Mid-School will mean be a big chunk of some makes gone, eg, Terrible One
http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/ and S&M at the beginning http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/
-
Some bikes from 2003 the year suggested as the end date.
2003 - 2 Hip Pork http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/31700
2003 - 2 Hip Root Down http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/51765
2003 - S & M Dirtbike XL http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/49112
2003 - S & M Dirtbike http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/15516
2003 - S & M PBR http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/66976
2003 - Hoffman Resistance http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/70997
2003 - Hoffman Rhythm http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/18151
2003 - Hoffman Condor http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/55957
2003 - S & M Neal Wood http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/49244
2003 - S & M Trail Frame http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/72908
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/33547
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/69736
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/55807
Having just the 1990s for Mid-School will mean be a big chunk of some makes gone, eg, Terrible One
http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/ and S&M at the beginning http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/
So.....
Looking at your post rod, are we saying S&M at the beginning.... 1987 and Two hip at the end... 2003? Isn't that what we have (1997-2002) that everybody keeps complaining about?
So have we gone full circle and you guys were moaning just for the sake of moaning?
-
Some bikes from 2003 the year suggested as the end date.
2003 - 2 Hip Pork http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/31700
2003 - 2 Hip Root Down http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/2_hip/51765
2003 - S & M Dirtbike XL http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/49112
2003 - S & M Dirtbike http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/15516
2003 - S & M PBR http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/66976
2003 - Hoffman Resistance http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/70997
2003 - Hoffman Rhythm http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/18151
2003 - Hoffman Condor http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/hoffman/55957
2003 - S & M Neal Wood http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/49244
2003 - S & M Trail Frame http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/72908
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/33547
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/69736
2003 - Terrible One Bar Code http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/55807
Having just the 1990s for Mid-School will mean be a big chunk of some makes gone, eg, Terrible One
http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/terrible_one/ and S&M at the beginning http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/sandm/
So.....
Looking at your post rod, are we saying S&M at the beginning.... 1987 isn't that what we have that everybody keeps complaining about?
So have we gone full circle and you guys were moaning just for the sake of moaning?
When the site started back up again IIRC the moaning was about 87 & 88 masters being moved to the Mid School section where they don't belong as they are old school also as a result they didn't get the recognition and praise they deserved.
There is an overlap period between 87-89, 1989 is a more accurate date as it's when bashys were introduced and most of the MS fellas say bashys are mid school.
S&M was started in 87 but should be included because it could be considered the first mid school brand and the other reasons given earlier in the thread.
Do you think 89 (including S&M from 87) is an acceptable compromise?
-
Do you think 89 (including S&M from 87) is an acceptable compromise?
Don't just single out S&M though - just make it any double plate dropout bike from 87-88 and any bike from '89 onwards. This'll mean you can include other companies (such as a double drop Privateer) as well as those bikes that were modified which earmarks the start of mid.
-
Do you think 89 (including S&M from 87) is an acceptable compromise?
Don't just single out S&M though - just make it any double plate dropout bike from 87-88 and any bike from '89 onwards. This'll mean you can include other companies (such as a double drop Privateer) as well as those bikes that were modified which earmarks the start of mid.
Suits me if that's allowed as and option :daumenhoch:
-
this thread is getting all...
(http://www.sparkpeople.com/assets/quote_images/quote_265.jpg)
-
so if it's a 1987 something with double plates you CAN still post/enter your bikes either in old OR mid school....?
In other word: the change would essentially be a header named "89ish" with the asterik that there are some exceptions allowed?
-
Do you think 89 (including S&M from 87) is an acceptable compromise?
I am happy for 89 but I don't want to start saying but we can also include S&M from 87 as then somebody else says but how about my GT, Robinson, Auburn, Haro and then it becomes a great big circus again.
See my two options is keep 1987 as the start like it is now and push the end date slightly, or just go with decades and no schools, so the site will consist of bikes from 70's, 80's, 90's etc that way if you have S&M from 1987 it is in the 80's, how can anybody argue that is incorrect?
-
I am happy for 89 but I don't want to start saying but we can also include S&M from 87 as then somebody else says but how about my GT, Robinson, Auburn, Haro and then it becomes a great big circus again.
That wouldn't happen though Sean if you phrase it as bikes from 87 and 88 must have double plate dropouts (ie THE big sign that a bikes reeeeeal early mid school). Don't phrase it like I said as a single brand but an advancement in tech that can't be disputed and won't be seen as brand favouritism.
-
Look I will go with whatever you guys want, however we have to have a difinitive start date and a method that is workable and compatable with the rest of the site.
I am not having all the other era's with start and end dates and the midschool era defining their own flexible dates. Remember I have to sell the changing of the dates etc to the admin team and flexible dates will just not be tolerated by the owners/admin/moderators.
I just want you to give me something tangible, that I can use. I know that there is a cross over period, but all schools have that but they have had to compromise, which is something you guys will have to do also.
-
Fair play :daumenhoch:
Said what I thought, and I understand that Rad needs the sections set firm.
In that case then I'm gonna go for 1987 as a start and 2003 as an end.
-
Fair play :daumenhoch:
Said what I thought, and I understand that Rad needs the sections set firm.
In that case then I'm gonna go for 1987 as a start and 2003 as an end.
I do appreciate yours and everyone elses comments, I am playing devils advocate at all turns here, but I am only trying to show what is needed.
As I said this is the very last time that a vote/decision/change is on the cards, so what needs to be sorted is what changes are to be made as after this any posts about it will be deleted without notice.
So give me a ideas on years or decades, 1" headsets etc anything real that so we can start making a poll, which will then be put to a vote.
-
Start 1989, finish 2003 :daumenhoch:
-
Now and again you come across a thread you just wish you'd never started reading :LolLolLolLol:
I like the years :daumenhoch:
-
Start 1989, finish 2003 :daumenhoch:
I have to admit I do like the look of 1989 as a start date Stu. :daumenhoch:
-
So without sounding like I'm banging me head against a wall/dead horse being flogged :LolLolLolLol:
Why leave out all the real early mid stuff like the K9-Dzine, Mad Dog, Privateers and so on. Would like people who think that 89 as a set date should force these bikes into the old school catagory when they're not old school? Not having a pop - just would like to hear their justification from you 1989'ers.
I suspect though that people might have a tad of a thing about bashguards marking the start - when they really weren't what midschool was about tbh. Again - not having a pop, just wanna hear to convince me :)
-
So without sounding like I'm banging me head against a wall/dead horse being flogged :LolLolLolLol:
Why leave out all the real early mid stuff like the K9-Dzine, Mad Dog, Privateers and so on. Would like people who think that 89 as a set date should force these bikes into the old school catagory when they're not old school? Not having a pop - just would like to hear their justification form you 1989'ers.
This is exactly the problem, I suppose it's being suggested just to try and reach a compromise even though it's wrong as we are being pushed into a corner over deciding a year.
When the site was started up again it was 87 IIRC and that's when all the whinging started because bikes that clearly didn't fit were moved into the section.
I'm in favour 87-03 so that all of what's considered mid-school is included in the section, can't lose the early stuff if it can't be included by amendment "nono"
-
I for one would not put my '87 TNT into mid school. It is a still riding pro riders frame set and he said he raced it from '87 - '89 in 'old school'. All the parts he had fitted to the bike too were old school so, starting at '87 will force me into an era I shouldn't be in.
-
dordy:
"I just find it funny that later streetbeats gt and them trickstar 2 things can be classed as mid school in the show and shine along side of standard/s&m/2hip/Hoffman etc. "
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,171048.msg1718922.html#msg1718922)
-
And I'd find it funny that my 1988 Mad Dog should go in the old school section. Full circle :LolLolLolLol:
And I bet if you asked Dordy he'd agree.
-
if strictly handled dates really are a given (and for BOTH -rad forum and show and shine)
perhaps we can minimize these cases of feeling funny by approximating/naming the decades vintage, os, ms, ns
-
lets just do it on weight and f**k the years :daumenhoch:
could we have 87 for certain 'stated' manufacturers and '89 - 2003' for a general catchall?
-
If this thread carries on, I think most people reading it will be driven to throwing themselves under a bus, thus removing the need for any decision at all....or is that the aim?
Setting a year will only perpetuate the moans, but that appears to be the only acceptable answer. I may have missed the point, but why is a crossover period not possible, with a list of defining features for frames? I don't see why that would fuel any more grief than a specific year will.
I also think that setting years is essentially forcing rules on people, which is never welcome.
Basically, you either allow members some leeway, which I realize may result in more hassle for mods etc, or you peeve them off....damned if you do and damned if you don't springs to mind.
-
yeah what Sen said really... ;)
ooo here's that bus......... and Seans driving! ;D
-
It is very hard as like some have said in 87/88/89 there are some very mid bikes but also very old school stuff, I find it shocking to see a trick star in the mid section.... Or a 87 sport but that's just how I feel... And my taste
-
If this thread carries on, I think most people reading it will be driven to throwing themselves under a bus, thus removing the need for any decision at all....or is that the aim?
Setting a year will only perpetuate the moans, but that appears to be the only acceptable answer. I may have missed the point, but why is a crossover period not possible, with a list of defining features for frames? I don't see why that would fuel any more grief than a specific year will.
I also think that setting years is essentially forcing rules on people, which is never welcome.
Basically, you either allow members some leeway, which I realize may result in more hassle for mods etc, or you peeve them off....damned if you do and damned if you don't springs to mind.
No the aim is for you guys who are supposed to know and the ones doing all the moaning to sort out what you want.
The reason for no cross over period is because that is not the way we are going to run things, as I said before all the other era's have a date that they work to so MS is also going to have to compromise.
Who is to say what that cross over period would be, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, when you have a sliding scale it slides further and further depending on where you want you bike to appear.
We also run the biggest OS get together in the world, this runs a massive S&S that takes about 4-5 hours to judge, during this judging to then have to decide is this a cross over year bike, has it got double thickness dropouts etc etc is just too much to ask. Remember judges/mods/admin get paid nothing for all these hours we put in to ensure the weekend runs smooth, we barely have time to think, let alone enjoy the weekend.
Is it too much to ask that we have some compromise and assistance from MS era to ensure that we continue this site smoothly?
Remember it is only a problem if you make it into one.
-
...when did 14 mm axles for fs bikes become common?
-
...when did 14 mm axles for fs bikes become common?
See even that would do, it doesn't have to be a year etc, we can say 14mm axles etc as I said it just needs to be a line in the sand that we can say _________________________ this is where RADBMX say midschool started.
-
Would it be ok to ask again for people saying 1989 as the start date to justify it please?
I can tell you why 1987 would be my choice if we can't 'feather' the start of MS:
1. First appearance of U Brakes on a bmx.
2. A huge change in freestyle techniques.
3. Appearance of 'beefing up' (ie double dropouts) to cope with point 2.
4. A start of change in geometry to cope with point 2.
5. The start of true rider owned companies.
6. The start of the major decline of the large BMX companies (buy dropping sponsorships, bike quality takes a nose-dive - these are the companies that 2 years later will try on the old bashy model to flog a dead horse).
Love you all.
-
good points. ^"^
However then the first appearance of 1 1/8th headsets would by the same token designate the start of New School?
-
good points. ^"^
However then the first appearance of 1 1/8th headsets would by the same token designate the start of New School?
Cheers Fisch.
But no - as that's one thing (unlike the above) that was adopted from MTB's in 1993 by Standard Byke Co.
Same with 14mm - 1998 saw that creeping in.
Cassettes were around in 1997 (Profile ones).
It's when you start seeing true micro gearing, the dropping of US BB's and a new 'make it light and strong' approach kicking in that for me defines the start of new. Although as any kid at a park and they don;t give a fook about owt earlier than last year :LolLolLolLol:
-
Mid started in 89. ;)
-
Mid started in 89. ;)
Justify it Stu - just for my piece of mind why?
It's easy to say but back it up with factoids.
-
I am interested in the 14mm years, as I gave up racing in late 85 and I never saw or heard of 14mm axles until I got back in the sport in 2001.
That to me seems a good point if we can pin it down to its introduction.
-
Mid started in 89. ;)
Justify it Stu - just for my piece of mind why?
It's easy to say but back it up with factoids.
Why not? :LolLolLolLol:
89 would be my ball park but as said, and I agree fully, setting decades is the most correct way to go, the only way to go. People dont like change but the 'school' thing has always just been a phrase. Other than the hassle of renaming sections, how can anybody argue with the logic of correctly catagorising bikes?
-
Mid started in 89. ;)
Justify it Stu - just for my piece of mind why?
It's easy to say but back it up with factoids.
Why not? :LolLolLolLol:
89 would be my ball park but as said, and I agree fully, setting decades is the most correct way to go, the only way to go. People dont like change but the 'school' thing has always just been a phrase. Other than the hassle of renaming sections, how can anybody argue with the logic of correctly catagorising bikes?
Because I want to know - it might change my mind. Called debate.
Saying that I ain't forcing anyone to justify it. Just wanna know as it's a piece of piss to come on the thread and just say a year without a decent reason.
Fook it - I'm going with 1997-1998. No reason :LolLolLolLol:
And yeah - like I talked bollocks about on Saturday, decades would be the way to go and drop schools, but that looks like a fook load of hassle to rejig the site?
-
When the bashy era started and most of the frames started to change shape, simples!
I don't support the ad990 argument as they only came out on haro's and gt's for a couple of years and then they disappeared when the bashy era started, only to re-appear in 91. :daumenhoch:
In 87/88 there were only a few bikes that had ad990's and they were basically the same as the 86 models with a few small changes and ad990 mounts,
It wasn't until 1989 when all the big changes started to happen, frames looked completely different, and a different type of riding began, gone were the days of riding in your team outfits on your nicely presented Haro or gt. You had anarchic adjustment, life's a beach, 2hip, hammer pads and a bell moto lid, and everyone started to ride hardcore, totally different to what had happened before, now it was balls out and underground.
Yes S&M started before 89 but it didn't really start to hit it off until the 90's! Luckily for Haro and gt the riders were still supporting them but strangely enough the hardcore riding ended up making a mockery of their frames and forks, which eventually ended there popularity as riders moved on to better made equipment built by riders to be ridden. This was then the era that S&M amongst others started to come to the fore, if you look back at videos of the late 80's/early 90's you don't really see anyone riding an S&M but plenty of haro's and gt's are about. Yes the S&M was probably a better and stronger bike back in 88 but it hadn't gained any popularity at that time. :daumenhoch:
-
I am interested in the 14mm years, as I gave up racing in late 85 and I never saw or heard of 14mm axles until I got back in the sport in 2001.
That to me seems a good point if we can pin it down to its introduction.
People started cutting their drops as early as late 1997/ early 1998 - Peregrine Phat Jacks came with a 10/14mm flippable axle for that very reason. Thing is though if you're sticking with schools then thats one tiny change in a big old sea of change in later years
-
Mid started in 89. ;)
Justify it Stu - just for my piece of mind why?
It's easy to say but back it up with factoids.
Why not? :LolLolLolLol:
89 would be my ball park but as said, and I agree fully, setting decades is the most correct way to go, the only way to go. People dont like change but the 'school' thing has always just been a phrase. Other than the hassle of renaming sections, how can anybody argue with the logic of correctly catagorising bikes?
Because I want to know - it might change my mind. Called debate.
Saying that I ain't forcing anyone to justify it. Just wanna know as it's a piece of piss to come on the thread and just say a year without a decent reason.
Fook it - I'm going with 1997-1998. No reason :LolLolLolLol:
And yeah - like I talked bollocks about on Saturday, decades would be the way to go and drop schools, but that looks like a fook load of hassle to rejig the site?
:LolLolLolLol:
-
1987-2003 Follows on from old school on the forum, That no one is moaning about and pushes NS up a year that no one will moan about :LolLolLolLol:
That's my line in the sand. But there are far more worthy men on here than me.
As for the 14mm axle! My 2001 mid school FBM has 10mm drop outs, I think quite a few mid frames have 10mm drop outs that got hacked to take 14mm.
-
When the bashy era started and most of the frames started to change shape, simples!
I don't support the ad990 argument as they only came out on haro's and gt's for a couple of years and then they disappeared when the bashy era started, only to re-appear in 91. :daumenhoch:
In 87/88 there were only a few bikes that had ad990's and they were basically the same as the 86 models with a few small changes and ad990 mounts,
It wasn't until 1989 when all the big changes started to happen, frames looked completely different, and a different type of riding began, gone were the days of riding in your team outfits on your nicely presented Haro or gt. You had anarchic adjustment, life's a beach, 2hip, hammer pads and a bell moto lid, and everyone started to ride hardcore, totally different to what had happened before, now it was balls out and underground.
Yes S&M started before 89 but it didn't really start to hit it off until the 90's! Luckily for Haro and gt the riders were still supporting them but strangely enough the hardcore riding ended up making a mockery of their frames and forks, which eventually ended there popularity as riders moved on to better made equipment built by riders to be ridden. This was then the era that S&M amongst others started to come to the fore, if you look back at videos of the late 80's/early 90's you don't really see anyone riding an S&M but plenty of haro's and gt's are about. Yes the S&M was probably a better and stronger bike back in 88 but it hadn't gained any popularity at that time. :daumenhoch:
Thank you Stu (apart from the simples bit - I fooking hate that advert) :daumenhoch:
-
No problem. Simples! :LolLolLolLol:
-
1987-2003 Follows on from old school on the forum, That no one is moaning about and pushes NS up a year that no one will moan about :LolLolLolLol:
That's my line in the sand. But there are far more worthy men on here than me.
As for the 14mm axle! My 2001 mid school FBM has 10mm drop outs, I think quite a few mid frames have 10mm drop outs that got hacked to take 14mm.
Ere - that is a good point. Mid worked in with the others before the site rejig. Didn't we have Mad Dogs in the show and shine/mid section n'stuff.
I'm shutting my cakehole now. The missus is eyeballing me.
-
If this thread carries on, I think most people reading it will be driven to throwing themselves under a bus, thus removing the need for any decision at all....or is that the aim?
Setting a year will only perpetuate the moans, but that appears to be the only acceptable answer. I may have missed the point, but why is a crossover period not possible, with a list of defining features for frames? I don't see why that would fuel any more grief than a specific year will.
I also think that setting years is essentially forcing rules on people, which is never welcome.
Basically, you either allow members some leeway, which I realize may result in more hassle for mods etc, or you peeve them off....damned if you do and damned if you don't springs to mind.
No the aim is for you guys who are supposed to know and the ones doing all the moaning to sort out what you want.
The reason for no cross over period is because that is not the way we are going to run things, as I said before all the other era's have a date that they work to so MS is also going to have to compromise.
Who is to say what that cross over period would be, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, when you have a sliding scale it slides further and further depending on where you want you bike to appear.
We also run the biggest OS get together in the world, this runs a massive S&S that takes about 4-5 hours to judge, during this judging to then have to decide is this a cross over year bike, has it got double thickness dropouts etc etc is just too much to ask. Remember judges/mods/admin get paid nothing for all these hours we put in to ensure the weekend runs smooth, we barely have time to think, let alone enjoy the weekend.
Is it too much to ask that we have some compromise and assistance from MS era to ensure that we continue this site smoothly?
Remember it is only a problem if you make it into one.
It's not only a problem for the mid school section Sean it's also a problem for the old school section.
I don't see people moaning I see people trying to solve a problem that's not even of their making, what I see is people mostly with a foot in both camps trying their best to facilitate what you want by making suggestions which are followed by discussion leading to suggestions, unfortunately any suggestions are just non-runners.
The problem created by the transition period between the two schools is not the fault of the members who frequent the mid-school section on RADBMX, it is a problem within the hobby in general. No other site has managed to get this right, with a bit of ingenuity and forward thinking RADBMX could be the site that gets it as close as you possibly can to being right, this may/will involve adjudication from time to time on factors other than years.
I agree with others who say if you segregate the sections purely into years the moaning is going to go off the richter scale.
There are a few guys who really know there stuff about what was happening between 87-89 and the differences between old school and mid school maybe one of them should be made a moderator and adjudicate when necessary, for example, in the S&S said moderator could decide if a bike is old school or mid school.
For me putting the bikes into decades isn't even a runner, RADBMX "home of the UK Old School BMX since 2004" will lose part of it's identity and reason for being.
-
guess you're right there.
ATM i'm leaning towards following Stu on the 89/90 start date - and following Rod/Danny on the end date of 2003ish
...or f.ex Philbert:
"This for me ran up until about 03. Then new school made a real headway with companies jumping on the standard bandwagon and using lighter tubing from strengthened metals, smaller chainrings, euro, Spanish, and mid bbs were becomingly widely available."
-
Then put it to the vote!
-
Sean just do it by decades and if peoples don't like it then it's just tuff shit :yahoo_silent:
-
Sean just do it by decades and if peoples don't like it then it's just tuff shit :yahoo_silent:
:daumenhoch:
its a logical, its chronological! its the future ;)
-
When the bashy era started and most of the frames started to change shape, simples!
I don't support the ad990 argument as they only came out on haro's and gt's for a couple of years and then they disappeared when the bashy era started, only to re-appear in 91. :daumenhoch:
In 87/88 there were only a few bikes that had ad990's and they were basically the same as the 86 models with a few small changes and ad990 mounts,
It wasn't until 1989 when all the big changes started to happen, frames looked completely different, and a different type of riding began, gone were the days of riding in your team outfits on your nicely presented Haro or gt. You had anarchic adjustment, life's a beach, 2hip, hammer pads and a bell moto lid, and everyone started to ride hardcore, totally different to what had happened before, now it was balls out and underground.
Yes S&M started before 89 but it didn't really start to hit it off until the 90's! Luckily for Haro and gt the riders were still supporting them but strangely enough the hardcore riding ended up making a mockery of their frames and forks, which eventually ended there popularity as riders moved on to better made equipment built by riders to be ridden. This was then the era that S&M amongst others started to come to the fore, if you look back at videos of the late 80's/early 90's you don't really see anyone riding an S&M but plenty of haro's and gt's are about. Yes the S&M was probably a better and stronger bike back in 88 but it hadn't gained any popularity at that time. :daumenhoch:
As Stu did with the 87 - I'd just like to add me two penneth, again in the spirit of debate and nothing nasty :)
I get why not the u-brake argument. Although there were there and did emerge.
I'm not too sure other than bashguards what changed physically about frames in 89. The change in riding imho began in mid 1987, heralded the arrival of double dropouts on both frames and forks - with welded steerers, rake changes and the HT angle etc.
And as in me list - it wasn't just S&M that started this - I'm a little unsure of the they didn't really start off till 1990? No one really came to the fore until around 1994 to be honest when stuff started to slowly pick up again. As for making a mockery of early S&M's - dunno where that's from. We wouldn't have the reeeeeal early (some may argue classic midschool frame) if it wasn't for the fact the Mad Dog XL is exactly the same as a Dirt Bike. They held up as well as any Bully bashy etc aavailable later on.
Anyway sounding like a fanboy now - genuinely not - I've got more DK stuff than S&M :daumenhoch:
-
I'm out...there's actually no 2 way debate happening here as far as I can see.
Laters potatos :yahoo_silent:
-
There was a transition period, and there is nothing that can be done about it. decades is the best solution, but its not ideal.
I say leave it as it is, let people put their bikes wherever they like, if they enter them in the wrong bit of SnS, then they won't win, but they may learn.
You wont ever please everyone, so carry on doing the good job that you all do with the site and leave this be, it can't be fixed!
MM
-
I don't agree the change of riding happened in 87, that was defiantly 89 where a complete new style of riding appeared, street riding appeared as a new way of doing things, and a barrage of grinding tricks came to the fore on vert and street, due to the bashy era.
However I would like to say that 1987 was the time where bmx bits started to actually work. Things like rotors and brakes could actually stop you on a dime instead of just slowing you down, decent levers that didn't bend when you pulled them. At this time a lot of the gimmicky bolt on stuff started to disappear, pretty much by 89 it was all gone. :daumenhoch:
-
And now I'm confused! :LolLolLolLol:
-
Me too. Stepping aside from being a keyboard warrior now :LolLolLolLol:
(Mainly cos me tea's ready)
-
The 2 years that keep appearing in all this is 1987 and 1989. Everyone seems to acknowledge 2003 as the end.
As everyone keeps saying with various examples/exceptions it is impossible to give a definitive date.
If you read Stu's post it can be interpreted as implying that MS developed in 1987 and was full on by 1989.
So as a compromise, Which is what is needed. Start at 1988 and run till 2003.
I dont agree with the decades idea, Its to simplistic for what everyone agrees is a conflicting topic.
It is good to see that there is still plenty of passion for kids bikes :slayer:
-
Looks like the consensus is moving toward 89-03, I'll go with that, Sean seemed happy to go with that earlier maybe that's it done :-\
Earlier I was thinking 87 but then I read this and together some of the above posts I'm thinking 89.
"In 1988 they went on to release the now legendary Slam Bar, and in 1989 the Dirtbike! Throughout 1989 and early 1990 as The Shield gathered a following in the BMX scene, Greg and Chris found it increasingly difficult to balance the books with their steady diet of BMX hedonism.
By the summer of 1990, Swingrover had taken a job at GT to help support his young family, and choosing to concentrate on his new career path, left S&M in Moeller’s hands. In a van loaded with guys like Dave Clymer and John Paul Rogers, Chris zig-zagged across the country living the “a Facebook groupstyle” a.k.a. sleeping on people couches, drinking their beer and riding as much as possible."
http://www.sandmbikes.com/about-sm/
I know it's not all about S&M
-
this was fun.. (http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/v521/fischflo/snif_.gif)
-
Innit. Never gonna please everyone.
That potted S&M history ain't all of it though is it? And yeah it's not all about S&M back then:
'In early 1987, a then 16-year-old “Mad Dog,” was causing a ruckus in the race scene and working as a test-rider for BMX Action Magazine. In other words, coming across plenty of products that left a lot to be desired. Swingrover, 19, was racing and dirt jumping while working at South Coast Bike Shop in Santa Ana, California. By the summer of 1987 the two decided to go into business with their own frame and fork – the K-9 D-Zine.
According to Moeller, their first offering was a mishmash of his three favorite frames at the time: “We worked from a Profile, my custom team-issued Privateer and a Robinson. It added up to a frame that could be raced well and ridden hard at the trails or on the street without falling apart. We just designed a cool bike for ourselves, gathered money and made two framesets. Our friends wanted them too, so we had 25 framesets made.”
By the fall of 1987, S&M had replaced the K-9 D-Zine with Moeller’s signature Mad Dog frame. In 1988 they went on to release the now legendary Slam Bar, and in 1989 the Dirtbike! Throughout 1989 and early 1990 as The Shield gathered a following in the BMX scene, Greg and Chris found it increasingly difficult to balance the books with their steady diet of BMX hedonism.
By the summer of 1990, Swingrover had taken a job at GT to help support his young family, and choosing to concentrate on his new career path, left S&M in Moeller’s hands. In a van loaded with guys like Dave Clymer and John Paul Rogers, Chris zig-zagged across the country living the “a Facebook groupstyle” a.k.a. sleeping on people couches, drinking their beer and riding as much as possible.'
And about the K9/Mad Dog:
'The double thick drops were a feature I was having built into my Privateer frames at the time for traveling a lot, and the milled HT and BB came from Cook Brothers, the original manufacture of S&M’s. It all added up to a frame that could be raced well and ridden hard at the trails or on the street without falling apart.'
I realise probably no bugger thinks 1987 now, so just put it to the vote, have done with it and I'll shut the fook up :LolLolLolLol:
-
how do we go on, like this?
[] 1987-2003
[] 1989-2003
[] decades
...this of course includes the risk that while the date favouring group as a whole may be a majority, the dacade groups still wins
-
I'm out...there's actually no 2 way debate happening here as far as I can see.
Laters potatos :yahoo_silent:
What debate do you want, I am asking for ideas and thoughts
-
alternatively seperate votes for start and end exclude that risk
smth like:
start date
[] 1987
[] 1988
[] 1989
[] 1990 or "decades, please"
end date
[] 2002
[] 2003
[] 2004
[] "i already said it decades, please!"
-
alternatively seperate votes for start and end exclude that risk
smth like:
start date
[] 1987
[] 1988
[] 1989
[] 1990 or "decades, please"
end date
[] 20
[] 2003
[] 2004
[] "i already said it decades, please!"
Too complicated Flo, you first version will work though :daumenhoch:
To use my new favourite phrase the general consensus seems to agree 2003 so looks like we just need to decide it's going to be 1989 and we are sorted. :slayer:
-
Sean - in summary are we looking at the decade thing right royally fooking the site structure up (and I think being nigh-on impossible to shift threads around that contain relevant info from the existing sections in to the decade sections - I mean looking at it it'll take someone the best part of a decade itself to do)?
Genuine question as if that is the case (and I wouldn't blame any bugger if it was) then we would have to steer away from the decade idea and plump for making a decision on a year.
-
Ere - tell you what. How about a compromise? Make Old School (like vintage to old school does and have the same finish/start date so 1980) as it's only really the latter half of 1987 that shifts towards what we know as 'Mid' lose the '87 and have these ere sections:
Old School: 1980 - 1988
Mid School: 1988 - 2003
New School: 2003+
That way in the same way the Vintage and Old school cats work out that a bike from 1980 can be (obviously) either vintage or Old in school. A Streetbeat for instance from 1988 should really go in the Old category and can using those years.
-
Sean - in summary are we looking at the decade thing right royally fooking the site structure up (and I think being nigh-on impossible to shift threads around that contain relevant info from the existing sections in to the decade sections - I mean looking at it it'll take someone the best part of a decade itself to do)?
Genuine question as if that is the case (and I wouldn't blame any bugger if it was) then we would have to steer away from the decade idea and plump for making a decision on a year.
indeed some difference
if 1989 wins you'll have to shift 1987 and 1988 and 2003 =3 years
if decades you shift 1987, 88, 89 and 2001, 2002 = 5 years
-
OK, I am going to stop being devils advocate now.
Looking at some ideas here and very interested in rodriguez post about using the experts we have on the site.
I could look at section moderator(s), and if you guys really think that you could work it if we had the cross-over dates that you could and would put the work in to ensure things ran smoothly then it is something I could take to the powers-that-be and see if they will live with it.
Again it is just another idea to float around, but if that were to happen I also would like some ideas from the experts on how it could work, convince me guys as believe me it is a thankless task moderating a section and I would want to know what I am letting myself and you in for.
-
Sean - in summary are we looking at the decade thing right royally fooking the site structure up (and I think being nigh-on impossible to shift threads around that contain relevant info from the existing sections in to the decade sections - I mean looking at it it'll take someone the best part of a decade itself to do)?
Genuine question as if that is the case (and I wouldn't blame any bugger if it was) then we would have to steer away from the decade idea and plump for making a decision on a year.
I have said that if decades are the way you want it done then I will put the work in to ensure things are crossed over, it will require a lot of messing about from me and a lot of help from you guys, but if that is the way then that is what needs to happen.
I have decided upon this route and decision so I will stick with it.
-
Decades are so much easier :daumenhoch:
-
I'm out...there's actually no 2 way debate happening here as far as I can see.
Laters potatos :yahoo_silent:
What debate do you want, I am asking for ideas and thoughts, just because something isn't going the way you want it isn't time to throw the toys out the pram surely?
There've been plenty of ideas and the overall opinion is quite clear, but all you're happy with is either a decade or year which most don't agree with. For that reason I'll give it a miss, call it spitting my dummy out or whatever you like! All my bikes are firmly within the mid era anyway so I'm not one you'll see complaining whatever happens.
-
i must reiterate that a sole 3 alternatives vote carries the risk of f.ex the votes for 1987unwantingly spoiling the victory for 1989.
Something like the second multi-year vote i presented might at the same time also be in Skid's favour
-
I'm out...there's actually no 2 way debate happening here as far as I can see.
Laters potatos :yahoo_silent:
What debate do you want, I am asking for ideas and thoughts, just because something isn't going the way you want it isn't time to throw the toys out the pram surely?
There've been plenty of ideas and the overall opinion is quite clear, but all you're happy with is either a decade or year which most don't agree with. For that reason I'll give it a miss, call it spitting my dummy out or whatever you like! All my bikes are firmly within the mid era anyway so I'm not one you'll see complaining whatever happens.
Fook me my missus is less hormonal when she is on her period.
Did I not just post this......
OK, I am going to stop being devils advocate now.
Looking at some ideas here and very interested in rodriguez post about using the experts we have on the site.
I could look at section moderator(s), and if you guys really think that you could work it if we had the cross-over dates that you could and would put the work in to ensure things ran smoothly then it is something I could take to the powers-that-be and see if they will live with it.
Again it is just another idea to float around, but if that were to happen I also would like some ideas from the experts on how it could work, convince me guys as believe me it is a thankless task moderating a section and I would want to know what I am letting myself and you in for.
The trick is to read everything written in a thread before ranting off on one. Especially when I am trying to help, however I also have to think of how this site runs and works.
-
I'm lost and confused and don't care anymore! :LolLolLolLol:
I blame Danny! :-*
-
if you went decades, couldn't the already posted threads just be left where they are or reposted (and deleted? their choice) by the thread author into the relevant sections if they so wished. if you leave it to the authors of the threads it means stuff will trickle into the freestyle section (for example) a bit at a time n liven rad back up a bit, as I'm sure a lot that's been posted in here hasn't been seen by a good few. Just a change in section title to include decade range should do it :) IMO
I personally have always viewed midschool from 89-99, no particular reason, other than a lot of functional quirks n thought in design started to be more obvious at this point and the bikes where almost all noticeably easier to throw about and survive (still, only my conception, from what I stumbled across while searching for the unusual and riding said bikes). I never rode in the 90s and never heard of any bike made after the performer before I got back into this. 89-99 is just the ballpark that's always been nodded to since I've been on this site (10-11 years is it?) and that was before the phrase "Midschool" was even conceived.
decades are the future, will stop the grandkids squabbling in 50 odd years time :LolLolLolLol:
go with what feels right stidds :daumenhoch:
-
some intermission music
Doctor Octagon(Kool Keith) - Dr. Octagonocologyst --------40:48
-
go with what feels right stidds
All I will be doing is putting together a poll for everyone to vote on.
I have been playing devils advocate simply as I have to make sure whatever ideas are thrown in the hat are workable for the site. I am not being awkward, if an idea is not something we can easily use or maintain then it won't be included in the poll.
-
go with what feels right stidds
All I will be doing is putting together a poll for everyone to vote on.
I have been playing devils advocate simply as I have to make sure whatever ideas are thrown in the hat are workable for the site. I am not being awkward, if an idea is not something we can easily use or maintain then it won't be included in the poll.
:daumenhoch:
-
I am getting quite good at this admin job now eh Daz? Scary that after 10 years I am starting to make sense :LolLolLolLol:
-
This subject appears to have gone viral now lol...
Just been browsing through the FB groups and people are asking if their obviously mid bikes/frames fit into the "mid school" category....
Its got people worried now whether or not their stuff is mid anymore :LolLolLolLol:
-
This subject appears to have gone viral now lol...
Just been browsing through the FB groups and people are asking if their obviously mid bikes/frames fit into the "mid school" category....
Its got people worried now whether or not their stuff is mid anymore :LolLolLolLol:
It's not mid school anymore just 90's shite :LolLolLolLol:
-
I'm also trying to help stidds, sorry if my tone was frank because it seems to have pissed you off ::)
If you're opening up now to suggestions, great...it's not entirely clear! But either way I'm not fussed and thankfully I can say good night, end of.
-
For me arranging the site in decades makes about as much sense as arranging it in alphabetical order which makes no sense at all.
This is BMX not music, BMX transcends decades hence we have made up categories like, vintage, old school, mid school and new school for the different eras.
-
When did heavy school start? 96? :-X :LolLolLolLol:
-
I'm lost and confused and don't care anymore! :LolLolLolLol:
I blame Danny! :-*
Ere - that makes me sound a bit 'groomy' Stu :LolLolLolLol:
-
I am getting quite good at this admin job now eh Daz? Scary that after 10 years I am starting to make sense :LolLolLolLol:
That may be pushing it a little :LolLolLolLol:
-
:popcorn:
Good this innit...
-
changing the whole site to decades is a no no in my opinion.
it would seem a 'rough' (with some grey areas) date would be 89 - 03 by the looks of most posts ???
Once this is sorted (and that could go on for decades ;D ) can we have a go at sorting the middle east problems? ;)
-
For ease of site structure and not to make major changes I would go with a start date of 87 (start of S&M bikes) or 89 (just fits really) and an end date of 03.
We could look at those 'soft' years (ie. the transition years), but I would need to speak to the higher powers on site and see if a couple of MS forum moderators can be introduced and they would have to keep the section clean and tidy. Remember this is something I haven't planned for and haven't even talked about with the other admin, so it may be thrown out on its ass. Also I don't know how this would work in the real world of RADBMX (MK S&S, BOTM, BOTY etc) and would have to do a bit of thinking about the nuts and bolts of the idea.
-
As said previously though Sean, if you start it at 1987, my TNT would come under that and it is clearly 'old school' :yahoo_silent:
-
My 1987 CW Z-1500 is as old school as it comes!
#justsaying
#minefield
-
That'd be it though Tel/Nick - I guess whatever the date for the start of Mid doesn't neccesarily mean that the Old School section will end at that date. Think Sean's saying that OS runs to what OS should be, and Mid can be gently moderated if a stray bike comes in from the OS period.
-
I'm just messing Dan ;D
Personally, I couldn't give a Monkeys poo poo area as, I know where my bikes stand, and would think that common sense prevails when others see it too :daumenhoch:
You only really have to look at a bike to see where it fits within the era's of BMX.
-
I'm just messing Dan ;D
Personally, I couldn't give a Monkeys poo poo area as, I know where my bikes stand, and would think that common sense prevails when others see it too :daumenhoch:
You only really have to look at a bike to see where it fits within the era's of BMX.
V true Tel - v true :daumenhoch:
Unless you're a clueless seller on eBay then everythings Old Skool ;D
-
what he said ^^^
Unless your reading this on some fancy mobile device then
What he said vvv
-
Having read all the view points I come to realise that my 91 Sport looks about as old school as it gets :daumenhoch:
Mid School 89 to 03 gets my vote as long as there is some flexibility for 87/88 bikes that have a valid argument for not being left behind :daumenhoch: Decades would be a royal pain in the arse to implement and doesn't really fit.
( IMO )
:daumenhoch:
-
Just put it to the vote for ffs just do a poll, let the people choose!
-
Just put it to the vote for ffs just do a poll, let the people choose!
Fine tell me what options you want to vote on and I will do it, what this thread was to do was to ensure everybody had a say in what they want. I didn't want to rush it as that gives somebody the opportunity to say 'I didn't have an input as the thread was cut short'.
-
They wouldn't say that would they Sean ???
-
Just put it to the vote for ffs just do a poll, let the people choose!
yeah come on Olly ... flappy chops :)
what, as you see it, are we voting on ???
-
Don't av a go at me, I can this thread is going nowhere fast so just put it to the vote and let us decide
87-2003
89-2003
90-2000
Etc etc
-
here go, Ed :popcorn:
alternatively seperate votes for start and end exclude that risk
smth like:
start date
[] 1987
[] 1988
[] 1989
[] 1990 or "decades, please"
end date
[] 2002
[] 2003
[] 2004
[] "i already said it decades, please!"
-
Don't av a go at me, I can this thread is going nowhere fast so just put it to the vote and let us decide
87-2003
89-2003
90-2000
Etc etc
Phew well as long as you say it is ready for a vote I suppose the whole site will have to toe the line.
So you just want those dates etc, I want a list of every option that people want on a poll. I will run the poll etc but I am not doing the rest of it.
So as Olly is quite obviously the voice of midschool he can pull all of the options together in one post and I will put a poll together.
Off you go....
-
So how have I become the fall guy? I'm just saying everyone stop bitchin so put the fooking dates up and vote ffs it ain't rocket science is it... Too much talking not enough action! Maybe some people do feel a bit stronger about it because we lived it....
-
the a Facebook groupstyle........ beer, sleeping on friends' couches, riding all day long :slayer:
-
What happens 2003 onwards?
Im not for or against anything thats been put forward but new school won't be for long. Decades are going to have to come into it at some point otherwise each but off is gonna be a recurring nightmare. Would be wise to look at the bigger picture and not just the bit you like
Just a thought :)
-
So how have I become the fall guy? I'm just saying everyone stop bitchin so put the fooking dates up and vote ffs it ain't rocket science is it... Too much talking not enough action! Maybe some people do feel a bit stronger about it because we lived it....
I said at the very beginning there is no time limit, it will take as long as it takes.
I am not making you a fall guy Olly, but also I am not going to take an immediate vote just because you say so.
There are lots of members on site and if it takes another month to sort out it takes that long.
This thread IS FOR TALKING, it is a discussion thread.
Also don't talk to me about people living it blah blah blah, I started racing/riding BMX in 1980 and still do it now so 34 years at my reckoning.
-
What happens 2003 onwards?
Im not for or against anything thats been put forward but new school won't be for long. Decades are going to have to come into it at some point otherwise each but off is gonna be a recurring nightmare. Would be wise to look at the bigger picture and not just the bit you like
Just a thought :)
I know where you are coming I was thinking about that too today, using 03 New School will have been going for around 10 years or so bikes haven't changed a whole heap during that time, I was wondering what will cause the next big sea change.
How many new schoolers (under 25) are on/join the site? Not many if any at all I think the young fellas are on bmx-forum now or the come up and most of them think anything pre-2010 is old school.
The sections are basically just to cater for ourselves a load of middle age men at the moment it's new school because that's what it is to us and that's what it'll be till it isn't.
I don't think it's for us to worry about as they'll probably name it themselves whenever it happens.
-
2003 sorta marks the smaller BB, weight over burliness, start of micro drive proper coming into proper effect etc - it's arbitrary again though as you could equally go for 2005 ;D
-
Don't av a go at me, I can this thread is going nowhere fast so just put it to the vote and let us decide
87-2003
89-2003
90-2000
Etc etc
you kids have no attention span ... as Sean said ... its worth discussing at length and getting right once and for all :daumenhoch:
Olly - I think you are working too hard and bit touchy = on your period ;D
-
Ok here it is Brothers
79-88 Old School
89-99 Mid School
2000-05 Heavy School
05-11 Light School
12-Today New School
The Dates might need jigging but I like the names.
ponder the Faith. L
-
I like that Lenny!!
-
I like that Lenny!!
'The Voice' agrees! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
;D
-
good work Len but its not quite there ... but what its brought out is that we don't need a vote with lots of choices.
We need to keep the discussion going until we have a consensus of opinion about what is the best way to date 'mid school' then once we have that we have a new thread with a vote that says 'do you agree' or 'do you not agree' ... if you DON'T agree then say why ... then we add that in a try again ... but the way things are headed I reckon we will get something we agree on first time :daumenhoch:
Just gotta keep it moving forward and refining the idea ... it actually pretty interesting discussion :coolsmiley:
-
...so how about...
(including exceptions from 1987 ) 1989 - 2003 (including exceptions up to 2005)
or ...
(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005)
...which allows for anyone with early of late 'midschool' to include it in the area they want it in :daumenhoch:
-
...so how about...
(including exceptions from 1987 ) 1989 - 2003 (including exceptions up to 2005)
or .
(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005)
...which allows for anyone with early of late 'midschool' to include it in the area they want it in :daumenhoch:
This does make sense and was kinda a given before the rad site change. As I said, I personally think mid is 89-99 but posted my 87 revcore in the mid section as it felt more mid than old
-
So it's just a vote on ONE period (89-2003) versus the decade idea, or is the decade idea ruled out? ???
AND especially if indeed just a YES/NO vote then it would be useful to add the main arguments in the actual vote, as -as i take-, this vote aims at wide participation and there'll be many who will not be arsed to read the whole shebang here
1989 : as Stu:
"This was then the era that S&M amongst others started to come to the fore, if you look back at videos of the late 80's/early 90's you don't really see anyone riding an S&M but plenty of haro's and gt's are about. Yes the S&M was probably a better and stronger bike back in 88 but it hadn't gained any popularity at that time. :daumenhoch:"
2003 : Rod
"04ish="US BB phased out, freewheels phased out in favour of cassette and introdution of micro gearing, 48h to 36h, movement towards light and strong as opposed to heavy and strong."
Danny
"It's when you start seeing true micro gearing, the dropping of US BB's and a new 'make it light and strong' approach kicking in that for me defines the start of new. Although as any kid at a park and they don;t give a fook about owt earlier than last year :LolLolLolLol:"
Philbert:
"This for me ran up until about 03. Then new school made a real headway with companies jumping on the standard bandwagon and using lighter tubing from strengthened metals, smaller chainrings, euro, Spanish, and mid bbs were becomingly widely available."
-
Its not definitely ANYTHING :daumenhoch: that was just an idea... if its not working we chuck it out if something better comes along.
So it's just a vote on ONE period (89-2003) versus the decade idea, or is the decade idea ruled out? ???
AND especially if indeed just a YES/NO vote then it would be useful to add the main arguments in the actual vote, as -as i take-, this vote aims at wide participation and there'll be many who will not be arsed to read the whole shebang here
1989 : as Stu:
"This was then the era that S&M amongst others started to come to the fore, if you look back at videos of the late 80's/early 90's you don't really see anyone riding an S&M but plenty of haro's and gt's are about. Yes the S&M was probably a better and stronger bike back in 88 but it hadn't gained any popularity at that time. :daumenhoch:"
2003 : Rod
"04ish="US BB phased out, freewheels phased out in favour of cassette and introdution of micro gearing, 48h to 36h, movement towards light and strong as opposed to heavy and strong."
Danny
"It's when you start seeing true micro gearing, the dropping of US BB's and a new 'make it light and strong' approach kicking in that for me defines the start of new. Although as any kid at a park and they don;t give a fook about owt earlier than last year :LolLolLolLol:"
Philbert:
"This for me ran up until about 03. Then new school made a real headway with companies jumping on the standard bandwagon and using lighter tubing from strengthened metals, smaller chainrings, euro, Spanish, and mid bbs were becomingly widely available."
-
(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005)
That works for me as well - little bit of light slapping into another section if we end up with a non extra gussets welded FST etc in 'ere and bob's your uncle.
That also give +- a decade for new school. Guess we don't have to worry 'bout a new-new section for that till we get the bmx equivelant of hoverboards :LolLolLolLol:
-
(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005)
That works for me as well - little bit of light slapping into another section if we end up with a non extra gussets welded FST etc in 'ere and bob's your uncle.
That also give +- a decade for new school. Guess we don't have to worry 'bout a new-new section for that till we get the bmx equivelant of hoverboards :LolLolLolLol:
mmm hoverBIKES! I could get all 'Tom Justice' then :daumenhoch:
-
Its not definitely ANYTHING :daumenhoch: that was just an idea... if its not working we chuck it out if something better comes along.
:)
unless it's some more peeps proposing for the 1987 startdate (which doesn't really seem necessary if there's an Admin consensus on that soft moderation ...err hows that sound ..solution), then i suggest a vote on smth like that
(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005) VERSUS decades
simply cause quite a few seem to favour that decade thong.
-
unless it's some more peeps proposing for the 1987 startdate (which doesn't really seem necessary if there's an Admin consensus on that soft moderation ...err hows that sound ..solution), then i suggest a vote on smth like that
(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005) VERSUS decades
simply cause quite a few seem to favour that decade thong.
All I can say is this, if you guys really think that you/we can really make it work with 'sliding dates' for the MS section, with the aid of a couple of section moderators, and you all think at this stage even before any vote is taken that is the way forward, then I can propose the idea to the other admin/mods and see what they think.
If they come back with a yes then that is the way we can go, if they say no then a solid set in stone start and finish date will have to be thought up.
-
lay inna word for us pro-moderationers, pro-sliding daters, Stidds :D que sera, as the Romans say
-
We don't even need sliding dates ... just a statement that flexibility of 2 years either side of these years is acceptable if the owner / builder / rider feels it justifies inclusion in the mid school section.
Regarding 'decades' as Sean has said, that will be a major change and may not justify the work involved ... if not more in favour of the 89-03 with 2 year flexibility :daumenhoch:
-
..thought it was 3 versus 5 years that would have to be shifted (with the 89-03 versus decade solutions).........?
-
STATMENT
Flexibility of 2 years either side of years 1989 - 2003 is acceptable
Can someone second this motion?
I also propose that the date of any said BMX is determined by its frame.
Hear, Hear. Said like some MP in the commons :LolLolLolLol:
-
STATMENT
Flexibility of 2 years either side of years 1989 - 2003 is acceptable
Can someone second this motion?
I also propose that the date of any said BMX is determined by its frame.
Hear, Hear. Said like some MP in the commons :LolLolLolLol:
seconded :)
-
..thought it was 3 versus 5 years that would have to be shifted (with the 89-03 versus decade solutions).........?
huh? how does '3 verses 5 years' come into it?
1989-2003 - flexibility for submission 2 year before and 2 years after these dates.
-
Yep - agree with (all the posts) above. It does leave the decade thang hanging (of which I was in two minds quite a few posts ago before weighing up the odds of restructure etc) I guess, unless the fellas who were pro that change their mind.
Least it now seems like we've all come the the conclusion as a group that there's two options :daumenhoch:
Most active thread in 'ere for quite some time, which cheers me up on the fact that there's still a lot of the old passion kicking around for them there dark ages :daumenhoch:
Ed - think Fisch was saying 'bout 2003 vs 2005 being a firm date for the end as there's a few 'votes' for each in the thread. The +/- allows for that though :)
-
-sorry Danny, i'll read ur post in a sec-
This what i meant:
Regarding 'decades' as Sean has said, that will be a major change and may not justify the work involved ... if not more in favour of the 89-03 with 2 year flexibility :daumenhoch:
so according to this view this decade option is too much of a royal fuss in comparison anyway
to which i answered/reminded, quoting moiself:
if 1989 wins you'll have to shift 1987 and 1988 and 2003 =3 years
if decades you shift 1987, 88, 89 and 2001, 2002 = 5 years
to whichh ED now sais:
huh? how does '3 verses 5 years' come into it?
1989-2003 - flexibility for submission 2 year before and 2 years after these dates.
to which I reply:
...what's wrong with that comparison ....... i thought the 1987, 1988 bikes were the exception, so all in all that comparison i gave shows that its not -as you partrayed- a decent versus a GARGANTUAN CHANGE
->so the decade option is not really a no no , so let's not rule that out :D ;)
-
STATMENT
Flexibility of 2 years either side of years 1989 - 2003 is acceptable
Can someone second this motion?
I also propose that the date of any said BMX is determined by its frame.
Hear, Hear. Said like some MP in the commons :LolLolLolLol:
thirded :daumenhoch:
-
..thought it was 3 versus 5 years that would have to be shifted (with the 89-03 versus decade solutions).........?
understand now :daumenhoch:
so where we are at is the proposal for a vote on the dating of mid school in 2 different ways "
'(>1987) 1989 - 2003 (<2005)' VERSUS Decades
If this is correct Sean and I will put it to the admin / moderators team and let you know shortly :daumenhoch:
-
STATMENT
Flexibility of 2 years either side of years 1989 - 2003 is acceptable
Can someone second this motion?
I also propose that the date of any said BMX is determined by its frame.
Hear, Hear. Said like some MP in the commons :LolLolLolLol:
Sounds good to me,
Are we actually all agreeing to something? Fook me I will have to go and sit down! :LolLolLolLol:
-
STATMENT
Flexibility of 2 years either side of years 1989 - 2003 is acceptable
Can someone second this motion?
I also propose that the date of any said BMX is determined by its frame.
Hear, Hear. Said like some MP in the commons :LolLolLolLol:
Sounds good to me,
Are we actually all agreeing to something? Fook me I will have to go and sit down! :LolLolLolLol:
you can sit down! who knew!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
( sorry Stu - couldn't help it >:D )
-
Cheeky Cnut! :LolLolLolLol:
-
There'll be a fallout :LolLolLolLol:
-
"hear hear"
-
ok - vote is going up between these two options then ... feel free to post up any more thoughts.
Vote will run for a week :daumenhoch:
-
Vote up :daumenhoch:
http://www.radbmx.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,171969.0.html
Gonna lock this thread - please post any further contributions in the vote thread.