RADBMX.CO.UK
BMX General => BMX Chat => Topic started by: HEYWOOD BMX on May 08, 2008, 10:18 PM
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:) Been reading a fairly heated debate on another site about these,mainly due to frames from MBK & GT (£1000 anyone?) Are these really progression in the development of BMX frames? I doubt it.Avent had their Morpheus frames,and personally I like the look but no way these are ever going to be as strong as a cromo/ti frame.The GT frame doesn`t seem to be even as light as some ali frames ...Let`s hear your views..
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cromo does the job for me to be honest, always honest and reliable :daumenhoch:
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IMHO it just wont work.
Look at all the money thrown at MTB development but after all the years playing with carbon, frames are few and far between due to cost and strength.
there is still know where near the amount of money in bmx compared to MTB so why waste our time.
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carbon shmarbon,
bring me that foul gt frame and i'll "progress" the fook out of it :daumenhoch:
its ALL about the cromo :smitten:
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i had an fmf 5 tube carbon race frame with carbon forks, cranks and seat post
it sucked eggs long time!
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:) I run carbon forks and know some people have issues with them.I don`t dispute that cromo is the way to go for BMX frames,after all if it`s not broke,don`t fix it.I`ve had.have some good alloy race frames too,just seems to me carbon BMX frames are a fad? The price seems totally extortionate and I don`t think the weight saving is all that.Cromo frames seem to be coming down in weight,for racing I`d say that`s a bonus.Not too sure about some mega light cromo freestyle frames-I`ve heard mixed views.
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No offence intended,but wasn`t the FMF frame you mentioned almost a direct copy of the Avent frames?
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i think so i just hated the bike i thought i would love it but i didnt its just my views im sure some people really like carbon it just aint for me
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steel is real !
a decent cromo frame will last forever if cared for ( within reason , you know what i mean )
alloy frames have a life expectancy before they fatigue ( ever wondered why mtbs with big forks have big gussets , CRACKKKK )
carbon is just a marketing gimmick , sorry to break it to the masses but it just is ;D . now the geometry is about right in bmx there isnt much a company can do to get that " i must fookin have that " feeling from a potential customer , all they can do is refine what they have .
frames are better off being made in steel , but that doesnt get the same reaction from average man on the street like a carbon frame would , but average man on the street doesnt know carbons shortfalls , brittle / flex / delaminates in the sun etc , they just see something fancy to spend a big wedge of money on
the fast guys will be fast enough to be given them , so cracking a few wouldnt be any problem . the real racers , the bread and butter of the racing scene wouldnt pay £1000 for a frame alone , they would spread the cost on things like travel and dependable parts , which leaves the rich posers who want the latest stuff but never ride enough to see how bad they are . but after all the fast racers use them so they must be good eh :P
:rant:
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I did a post a few weeks back about the new carbon gt, think most on here prefere good old 4130, but as said with it becoming a olympic sport its no bad thing to see new technoligy (spelling lol) but i personaly dont like it, steal is real and all that ;)
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steal is real and all that ;)
"put the money in the fooking bag and DONT look at me" :2gunsfiring_v1:
:LolLolLolLol:
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:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
thats why hes asking about the post office ::) , how do i get in on the blag ???
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:) Looks like that is settled then-carbon fibre + BMX =NO!
Personally I have no gripe with alloy raceframes,sure they don`t have the lifetime of cromoly but some do seem to be light as carbon without the stupid price tag.
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:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
how do i get in on the blag ???
work as a designer at GT, the twats, i just hate them, esp today >:(
:LolLolLolLol:
if they made an carbon frame that was CHEAP, tough, was tuned to feel exactly the same as a steel frame, was hard-wearing and weighed under a pound
i'd seriously consider one,
for me though it just shows GT up for what they are,
none of those tits even rides anymore so they just assume that we'll have the hand-me-downs from the xc mtb end of the business and that it'll work :(
theyre running out of idea's and needed a "corporate show pony" to try and garner a little "credibility"
mbk just saw what GT were doing and wanted "in" for a sniff,
specialized will be next you MARK my words,
lets be straight about it shall we? its something for the disco-slipper wearing race=fag homo's to show off to each other on the start gate,
seems to match the fooking evil corrupt nature of the "olympics" though eh? :LolLolLolLol:
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ten tenths know their stuff :daumenhoch:
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php't=104934
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I was a major contributor to the thread on the other forum.
I don't have a problem with new technology being tried in BMX, nor with carbon fibre bike frames per se. What gets my goat is that whenever someone posts a pic of one of these carbon fibre frames, there's always somebody who starts spouting stuff about it being "progression". How? If they're not lighter, stiffer, stronger, more resilient, don't have better strength-to-weight ratio and cost at least double the price of a top end frame already on the market, where's the progress?
And if they want us to take these carbon frames seriously, why make them look so toy shop-esque?
Like Perry says, they're a great PR exercise (look how many of us are debating them and apparently there are only 5 of those GT frames in the country).
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:) I read the thread on the other forum,and agree with Mike.Certainly not progression,just different & if anything not as good as alloy.Alans has some of the GT`s for sale....
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In terms of weight, strength and price combined, then aluminium is probably the best thing to make a BMX race frame out of. The only downside of alu is that it's not as resilient/long lasting as steel or titanium.
Titanium is the best material if price isn't an issue (but not many people in BMX are prepared to spend that much on a frame, as I have discovered).
Therefore, I think cro-moly is the best middle ground. Slightly heavier than alu and Ti (pound/pound-and-a-half), but strong and sensibly priced.
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whatever happened to those spin wheels
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I agree with Mike,
I work for a Software company and one of our products tests the stress/strain (FEA) on different materials. Most of the major MTB companies use it. The results carbon vs. aluminium vs. cromo is really pointless when you look at the disciplines the bike will be used for in the case of BMX and MTB. Road bikes, Triathlon bikes and track bikes are a different matter.
It’s just one up man ship, the cost of developing these carbon frames will be a part of the companies marketing budget and not designed for large production runs.
It really bugs me when these companies waste money on sh1t like this, why not sponsor more riders or events at grass root racing, they'd get their product shown in more places rather than giving a "new toy" to a couple of guys who are already fast as fook and a carbon frame will make bugger all difference to their overall performance.
I am all for moving forward with technology if there’s a better way of doing something or making something then go for it, but don’t was time on developing a product that the average man (i.e. the people who buy the products) cannot afford and by the responses posted here really don’t want
:rant:
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carbon fibre is for fishing rods :LolLolLolLol:
this'll do for me ta!
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/y79/dingobmxer/10112007063.jpg)
:) DINGO :)
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carbon fibre is for fishing rods :LolLolLolLol:
this'll do for me ta!
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/y79/dingobmxer/10112007063.jpg)
:) DINGO :)
and remember mate, you put spuds on that, it will blow up :LolLolLolLol: , oh ill send those scans tonight mate, ;)
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I find the 'Luddite' attitude towards carbon is typical of most peoples attitude within BMX racing, where it's uncool to be competative, enthusiastic or willing to progress. Sure, these frames look crap at the moment and are not good value for money, but look towards the potential thats still within the development of composite materials- if you don't test and develop, you'll never improve. The development of traditional metal frames, apart from fiddling with the geometry, seems pretty stagnant at the moment, so experimenting with alternative materials is surely a way of gaining a competative edge over your rivals.
My background is more in kart racing and motorsport, where any possible means is used to increase performance. Composite materials such as carbon are widely used in F1 and other formulas, in components where the stresses are far beyond those exerted by a BMX bike. In fact a freind of mine, whose son also races BMX, designs carbon components for aircraft- where failure of material has serious implications. If your telling me that a BMX frame can't be made of the same material then you're just kidding yourselves for fear of what exactly? Progression?
I'm not saying that carbon will be the answer, or will improve performance, but unless manufacturers are encouraged to experiment we'll never know. Who would have said 10 years ago that a diesel engine would win Le Mans? Audi did, and now everyones developing diesel engines. And I don't think diesel was ever a 'sales gimmick'.....
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"if you don't test and develop, you'll never improve"
will 1lb win a race ? never . does having a carbon frame mean a novice will be as quick as the world champ of a few years ago who used a cromo frame , i doubt it
do karts use monococque bodies ? because im sure my mates is tubular steel
are alloy rollcages allowed by the msa , erm nope still 4130 cromo there too
how about national hotrod space frames , ahh thatl be 4130 again
top fuel frames are still steel
youve gotta remember these things have still got to be ridden , sure an f1 car is fine for the 1 race it has to do but what about the weekend racer building their single seater on a budget , are they going to want a whole new car each year , or will they want something with longevity
what happens when little johnny has an off on his carlos fandango super lightweight frame and puts a sizeable crack in the toptube or even takes a chunk out of it , will it get him through the next moto safely or will the fear of it shattering get too much , will he lose to the lad who bought a £200 steel frame 3 years ago who for all intens and purposes has spent his time riding without being washed along on " the next thing to shave 1/10 off your time "
its about sales , if you can get someone to believe they will be faster on your new stuff they will buy it , regardless of it being any good or not
what exactly does it progress ? will it make the rider pedal harder and faster than the guy on the steel frame , doubtfull
are disc brakes on racing bikes any better than the v brakes or the u brakes or the calipers , or is it another way for a company to make a few quid by saying its " progression "
:rant:
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Really can't be arsed to repeat what I've already said elsewhere.
So when these carbon frames are proven to progress the sport of BMX, you can say "told you so". For the meantime, I'll continue to be one of the luddites selling good "old fashioned" cro-moly and titanium frames :LolLolLolLol:
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"will 1lb win a race? never."
Why do you think a 1000bhp F1 car runs that close to the weight limit that it has to pick up loose rubber on the in-lap?
How did Colin Chapman manage to beat the might have Ferrari with a car using an engine out of a fire hydrant?
Why do moto GP teams bother to drill the flanges on titanium bolts?
Theres a simple formula that exists thats called the power to weight ratio, and it's the difference between a tenth or a hundredth of a second that wins or loses a race. In any wheeled sport where a power source propels a vehicle this is the crux of all design as to producing maximum performance. It's not some tosh that I've just invented. A freind of mine went to Frank Wrathall (and if you know anything about bikes/karts you'll know who he is) to try and get a couple more bhp out of his 125cc 2-stroke engine. The engine tuner could have took a couple of grand off him for 1 more bhp, but instead he told him to save his money and come back when he'd lost a stone of weight.....
But, I didn't even refer to weight when I was discussing the development of alternative materials!..and I certainly wasn't dismissing the use of metals in any application.In most of which you have listed they are far more suitable than carbon-rollcages etc. What I was trying to dispell was the suspicion and negativity in the development of alternatives, and I don't just mean carbon. The only cracks in Johnny's Carlos Fandango frames I've seen have been in aluminium, but I still chose to buy one for my son. I don't suggest for one second that a trick frame is going to improve the rider if they are crap in the first place, and I really can't understand your comment about a novice being as quick as a world champ? I think you're missing the point there. It's about individual improvement and the rider and the bike both being as good as they possibly can be, be it a novice or at the highest level.
You're right that karts don't have monocoque chassis, and that carbon is not used in lower level formulae. In fact carbon and titanium components are banned from many 'sportsman' classes for the very reason that they offer so many advantages (thats why F1 and Moto GP use a lot of it!). It's to make sure that the teams with the biggest development budgets don't run riot and enjoy an unfair advantage. We don't have the restrictions of homologation in BMX, and someone else is paying for the development, so lets enjoy the alternatives..whatever you choose to ride.
Mike@dialled- I've read your post elsewhere and I think your points are fair and valid. You may be interested to know that when I set out to build a custom mini-BMX for my son it was you that I first contacted to see if you'd build him a titanium frame, you may remember the e-mail. For whatever reason it wasn't a valid proposition, but at least it backs up my point that I've nothing against any material!
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personaly i would want a bike that i could ride everything on , so 4130 is best for alround bmx'ing, but i suppose if you just have 1 race bike, then why not, average joe wants a alround bike, and if you only have 1 bike, then thats fair enough, and to me was always how bmx was, but that was bitd, bmx has moved on in leaps and bounds, although this isnt new, CF has been used before in bmx, but as i said on the other post i did, i noticed a few years back in the vans triple crown down hill races, nearly all the riders changed there forks to 4130, plus riders like neil wood did well without spd's and ali frames, and there was a few broken carbon forks at those races, plus broken ali frames, but if you have the dosh, or are sponsored why not,
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Ahhh, I'm getting sucked into this again.
As said before, I have nothing against carbon frames per se. And you're right that we will never know if advances can be made if R&D isn't done, so it's not even the companies who are making these carbon frames I take offence to either. My issues are with the "carbon is progression" crowd who are jumping on this carbon bandwagon (probably because the frames match their clips ;) ) and proclaiming it the next big thing in BMX before having any results or data to prove their claims. Emperor's new clothes syndrome I call it.
Carbon has been successful in low impact sports like road and track racing, but has hardly set the world alight in mountain biking, and it's a long way off proving itself in BMX.
By the way, I think this looks gorgeous:
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/z154/Chris87114/NAHMBShow/IndependentFabBMX.jpg)
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but bmx doesnt neeed carbon frames
its just a move to take a sport that anyone can go out and do to making it another lycra clad weight weenie sport driven by athletes like road and track racing is
its hardly going to get people involved when they see the top riders on these things , its not exactly something the majority can aspire to is it
but these people will always be beaten by people that spend their money on experience and not the latest ounce saving tat
i love the reference to gp / kart and formula 1 , they are known for the rough tracks they run on :2funny:
first rule of racing , build for the conditions
im not against composites , but in the right places , like bottle cages
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I'm not sure if BMX needs carbon frames either, but at least let's find out. Carbon has it's place as a viable alternative to other materials in certain applications, that's for sure. So lets see how far it can be pushed before we start dishing out the 'I told you so's'.
Perry, to understand the loads and stresses on a racing kart you really have to have driven one. I've ridden BMX and raced Karts. There's really no comparison.
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i'm a big fan of carbon fibre! and steel, and alloys,
i think for bmx its still in early stages of development though and everyone loves the diamond shape frame because of it simplicity. i like what can be done with carbon fibre, i spent a lot of time in about 97 studying how scott developed its project endorphin xc bike to be hardtail frame with 2 inches of travel, i was fascinated! you can create carbon fibre to do exactly what you want it to do unfortunately for bmx the only companies that can afford to develop such things are the fat cat companies like gt. saw they're latest version of the legendary zaskar in carbon fibre today and its fookin lovely!
in heinsight to that a lot of development is still going on with other materials still with alloys being hydro formed into odd shapes to give the right amount of strength where needed and chromoly tubing is still being developed to be stronger with different heat treating methods to make lighter frames and still hold the expected strength of a bmx frame
i would like to see a carbon fibre monocoque frame still in the basic diamond shape of a bmx to see how slick it looks, i think the biggest issue with cf frames is the whacky designs the manufacturers come up with. if they can make it that light with the strength in the right places theres no reason why a freestyle frame couldn't be produced these days with the lack of peg usage! wild statement i know but its true!
although power to weight ratio can be important to any sport. it can definately give you an edge from the start gate and when sprinting but experience and talent to me are the most important aspects on the track. you could be the fastet fooker on earth but if you can't glide across jumps and outwit other riders on corners with different racing lines then your not going to win!
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Carbon has been successful in low impact sports like road and track racing, but has hardly set the world alight in mountain biking,
no offence mike but thats not true, in cross country it is the only choice, admittedly in DH and Freeride you are correct. BMX race is comparable to cross country impact for impact, unless ridden poorly, so I see no reason why Carbon can't be explored as an option for pro race bikes.
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"will 1lb win a race? never."
Why do you think a 1000bhp F1 car runs that close to the weight limit that it has to pick up loose rubber on the in-lap?
How did Colin Chapman manage to beat the might have Ferrari with a car using an engine out of a fire hydrant?
Why do moto GP teams bother to drill the flanges on titanium bolts?
Theres a simple formula that exists thats called the power to weight ratio, and it's the difference between a tenth or a hundredth of a second that wins or loses a race. In any wheeled sport where a power source propels a vehicle this is the crux of all design as to producing maximum performance. It's not some tosh that I've just invented. A freind of mine went to Frank Wrathall (and if you know anything about bikes/karts you'll know who he is) to try and get a couple more bhp out of his 125cc 2-stroke engine. The engine tuner could have took a couple of grand off him for 1 more bhp, but instead he told him to save his money and come back when he'd lost a stone of weight.....
But, I didn't even refer to weight when I was discussing the development of alternative materials!..and I certainly wasn't dismissing the use of metals in any application.In most of which you have listed they are far more suitable than carbon-rollcages etc. What I was trying to dispell was the suspicion and negativity in the development of alternatives, and I don't just mean carbon. The only cracks in Johnny's Carlos Fandango frames I've seen have been in aluminium, but I still chose to buy one for my son. I don't suggest for one second that a trick frame is going to improve the rider if they are crap in the first place, and I really can't understand your comment about a novice being as quick as a world champ? I think you're missing the point there. It's about individual improvement and the rider and the bike both being as good as they possibly can be, be it a novice or at the highest level.
You're right that karts don't have monocoque chassis, and that carbon is not used in lower level formulae. In fact carbon and titanium components are banned from many 'sportsman' classes for the very reason that they offer so many advantages (thats why F1 and Moto GP use a lot of it!). It's to make sure that the teams with the biggest development budgets don't run riot and enjoy an unfair advantage. We don't have the restrictions of homologation in BMX, and someone else is paying for the development, so lets enjoy the alternatives..whatever you choose to ride.
Mike@dialled- I've read your post elsewhere and I think your points are fair and valid. You may be interested to know that when I set out to build a custom mini-BMX for my son it was you that I first contacted to see if you'd build him a titanium frame, you may remember the e-mail. For whatever reason it wasn't a valid proposition, but at least it backs up my point that I've nothing against any material!
BLOODY HELL JAMIE HAVE YOU BEEN USING THE CARBON FIBRE BOTTLE OPENER AGAIN. :LolLolLolLol:
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Carbon has been successful in low impact sports like road and track racing, but has hardly set the world alight in mountain biking,
no offence mike but thats not true, in cross country it is the only choice, admittedly in DH and Freeride you are correct. BMX race is comparable to cross country impact for impact, unless ridden poorly, so I see no reason why Carbon can't be explored as an option for pro race bikes.
No offence taken ;). I disagree though. Carbon isn't the "only" choice in XC. Sure, it's quite popular, but I still reckon more people ride aluminium frames.
Anyway, I keep getting drawn into this debate when I really don't care anymore :idiot2:
I might design myself a carbon cruiser for next season now, just for a laugh :uglystupid2:
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proclass , surely its just an assumption whether or not ive had a go in a kart ??? and isnt that a personal gripe in a discusion about a particular materials merits in bmx
you make it sound as if we all hate carbon fibre , which we dont . i have carbon fibre forks and seatpost on my STEEL kona and it flexs and creaks , but it has its use there . isnt it just the very top level of xc racing and the weekend warrior office crowd that sweats their balls over carbon xc stuff . everyone ive seen out on the trails has steel and alloy
if someone wants a state of the art frame good for them , but dont cry when the r&d money has been put into the product and not into the upkeep of numerous tracks that would benefit from a bit of corporate sponsorship
all i can see happening is gt knocking out a few of their scaled down zaskars to the top american riders , the rich buying a few for the bling factor and a whole slew of kids disheartened because their parents cant afford to buy the seemingly "must have to be at the top " kit
its a step back in my yes , but thats just my humble opinion of course :)
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Perry, it really wasn't meant as a personal gripe so aplogies on that one. I don't mind a good debate but confrontation isn't really my thing. The only reason I responded to the thread on RAD as opposed to the one on Talk is that every thread on there seems to end in handbags, so I'm sorry if it seemed that way. Anyway, I'm off to clean my lad's bike ready for Mansfield tomorrow- it's an aluminium Supercross with lots of Ti and carbon ! :daumenhoch:
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dont worry about it were all grown ups here :daumenhoch:
discusions are great :)
good luck tomorrow , lets have plenty of pics of the bike and the riding :)
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i personaly have used alsorts for xc mountain biking since 88, and still prefere steel, ali i find to stiff, no natural flex (rigid) as i use a rigid mtb i prefere my tange prestige tubing, plus ive had it since 95 and although ive had many mtb's i still prefere this frame, in bmx racing surly ali is good as its stiff ( good of the gate less flex ? ) titanium flexes abit like steel so surly you lose there , ive heard that ali frames just about last a season of racing as get brittle, i like steel, as they go on and on, so £ for £ better value for the novice rider or on a budget ,
paul
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(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/ii88/rattybmx/IMG_9242.jpg)
Titanium1st
Cro-mo 2nd
Carbon 3rd
;)
::)
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:LolLolLolLol:
:4_17_5:
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NEW GT CARBON FIBRE ULTRABOX 2-LOOKS NICE!
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/hh43/heywoodbmx/gt_ultrabox2.jpg)
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Keep up Mike, frames are so last season. Forks are the new frames...so it looks like Carbon 1st, Pig Iron 2nd, Carbon 3rd from where I'm standing...and that GT still looks sh1t ....where are we going with this? :D
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[quote author=proclass35
Keep up Mike, frames are so last season. Forks are the new frames...so it looks like Carbon 1st, Pig Iron 2nd, Carbon 3rd from where I'm standing...and that GT still looks sh1t ....where are we going with this? :D]
Glasgow ?
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NEW GT CARBON FIBRE ULTRABOX 2-LOOKS NICE!
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/hh43/heywoodbmx/gt_ultrabox2.jpg)
crazy, i was just going to say,
" i wonder if anyone will ever make a bmx that looks like a big fooking ugly d1ck with a b0ll0ck on each side to pedal with"
and GT have done it!
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i had the chance to have a good look at the gt at hernbay n i must say i realy like the way they used a diffrent weave on the prepeg carbon it looks great but i was surprized by its weight :shocked: my o/s haro was lighter the guy who owned it even admited that !!!! but he said its very rigid n is great out the gate
im all up for usein wot ever stuff is the new best as its never goin to realy help me win as iv not got the skills but for those that have if it helps why not
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but i was surprized by its weight :shocked: my o/s haro was lighter the guy who owned it even admited that !!!!
Yeah, me too. I know Wayne quite well so we had a good chat about the bike and compared it to the weight of my Ti cruiser, and my bike was noticably lighter as well.
I actually thought it looked a lot better in the flesh than it does in pics though.