RADBMX.CO.UK
BMX General => BMX Chat => Topic started by: dialledbikes on November 04, 2008, 11:42 PM
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How important is it to have a "made in the US" sticker on your bike? And is it important as a point of principle or a genuine belief that the Americans still make the best BMX frames?
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I think those days are gone now. I was sad when I heard Hoffman had moved production to Taiwan, but it does seem to be the general opinion that the quality went up after that move, so hey ho....
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Did anyone see the"The Taiwan Story" feature in USA Ride Oct 08, its a facinating article with some great pics, i can scan and post up if interested.
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I would say that it makes no difference where they are made. In fact the majority of Tai frames are probably better as the Taiwanese have invested in all the best machinery and latest equipment to attract customers accross the world...and TBH the product is testiment to that.
The 'Made in USA' badge is just a status symbol that their frame cost more than yours - bit like a New Era sticker on a cap - no tangible advantage, just branding.
Rob is right on the Hoffman stuff; the SE made bikes were nicely made, but Ramp Room were pretty much sub-standard and apart from 'The Egg' the move to Taiwan has been a good one in terms of quality.
I believe that S&M make a fantastic product, but it's no better than any high-end Taiwanese frame. It's price makes it 'reassuringly expensive' (thanks Stella), but if you look at the build quality of any of the recent higher-end Tai stuff it really is awesome (and not just frames; stems, hubs, etc, etc).
That's me.
Great topic.
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Makes absolutely no difference to me. I do have a problem with the US guys thinking that the only country in the world that can weld is the US. I have broken numerous frames in the past (SE, Hutch, JMC, GT) and the one frame that I NEVER broke was........ Curtis, Nuff said.
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makes no diff to me. even tho there is something appealing about a frame being built right down the road from me instead of across the world but for the most part it dont matter to me, tai stuff is very very good quality.
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Makes no difference now..........If you'd said UK and US now there is a difference :daumenhoch:
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nowadays there is no difference between the two, but ill still buy american just because its good to see a company like s&m who chose to make a product in their own country even though it will work out more expensive and have lower volumes but means they have full control 24/7 and can employ local people so they are giving something back to thier community, its a shame more uk companies dont do this and im not just talkin about in bmx
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Kev, I hear what you're saying, but I doubt if there's anyone in the UK who could make me 200-300 BMX/MTB frames per annum to the same quality as the Taiwanese make for me, and that's before we even start talking about price.
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I have an Intense M3 DH frame thats handbuilt in the USA, it does ride really well & has helped me win lots races but when you look closely at it the wheels dont line up fully & when you change the main pivot it takes about 9 of you to make the swingarm line up with the frame where it isnt quite true.
I think that whilst handbuilt bikes are good, what happens if the guy building yours has a bad day on the day he builds it? Robots dont have bad days so robot built bikes should be more consistent??
Not saying one is def better than the other but just looking at the issue objectively.
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mike, thats exactly what i mean about this country, 10 to 20 years ago i bet u could have done it but now because manufactuers want lower costs and higher profits most stuff is made abroad, can u tell me one well known uk bmx company that makes parts in the uk? go back 10-20 years and i bet u could name loads
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Kev, having been born and raised in the Steel City, I saw the decline of the UK manufacturing industry first hand.
But I don't think it's just a matter of lower costs/higher profits that have caused that decline. I just think UK society has higher/different aspirations in general nowadays. When I was at school, not many people aspired to go to Uni, but now going to Uni seems the norm, so people are better educated. On the flip side, a lot kids get their heads filled with crap/false hope like X-Factor, Big Brother, Hello/OK and all that bollox so grow up thinking fame/fortune will be handed to them or it's wrong to get their hands dirty to earn a living. And other areas of the UK economy like banking/finance, consultancy, legal, etc has boomed, making the UK good at making money but not necessarily good at making "things". In the West we talk about having a career. In places like Taiwan they talk about having a job. And I think that's where we start to begin to understand why no one in the UK bothers to mass produce stuff like quality bike frames any more - because being a welder isn't seen as a good career option (unless you're doing it as a labour of love like Chas Roberts, Curtis, Dave Yates, etc), it's just a dirty/unglamourous job which not many people want.
Sorry if this sounds a bit sociological for a BMX forum. I knew that Grade B at A-level would come in useful one day!
I like the debate this topic is generating though.
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mike i tottaly agree with what your saying, i work for a company in the financial sector and would love to get out and get a proper job making things like bmx frames but unfortunatly because so much of the uk is now financially based our manufactuering has suffered, its a shame the uk is no longer the manufactuering country we once were
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I still believe we have some of the best design engineers and civil engineers in the world...... :daumenhoch: but I agree with Mike I was born and raised in Sheffield and there are only a hand full of manufacturing/engineering companies left....... :'(
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personally as a MTB'r in a previous life i was gutted to hear Santa Cruz were stopping production in the US in 2003, Ive still got my 03 Superlight and i've also got a tai built 05 Blur and cant tell the difference between the two in terms of build quality.... didnt make em sell em any cheaper though....
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Taiwan now is very different from the 70's/80's Taiwan...
Technology speaking they're up with the Japs and Koreans..
they learn quickly and improve,...can't say if they are better or worse than the Yanks at manufacturing, I must admit that having the 'Made in USA' Sticker adds value to BMX...for heritage reasons if nothing else
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Kev, having been born and raised in the Steel City, I saw the decline of the UK manufacturing industry first hand.
But I don't think it's just a matter of lower costs/higher profits that have caused that decline. I just think UK society has higher/different aspirations in general nowadays. When I was at school, not many people aspired to go to Uni, but now going to Uni seems the norm, so people are better educated. On the flip side, a lot kids get their heads filled with crap/false hope like X-Factor, Big Brother, Hello/OK and all that bollox so grow up thinking fame/fortune will be handed to them or it's wrong to get their hands dirty to earn a living. And other areas of the UK economy like banking/finance, consultancy, legal, etc has boomed, making the UK good at making money but not necessarily good at making "things". In the West we talk about having a career. In places like Taiwan they talk about having a job. And I think that's where we start to begin to understand why no one in the UK bothers to mass produce stuff like quality bike frames any more - because being a welder isn't seen as a good career option (unless you're doing it as a labour of love like Chas Roberts, Curtis, Dave Yates, etc), it's just a dirty/unglamourous job which not many people want.
Sorry if this sounds a bit sociological for a BMX forum. I knew that Grade B at A-level would come in useful one day!
I like the debate this topic is generating though.
:daumenhoch:
Top words Mike.
Most of my clients in the UK are just like you - UK design and marketing - far east manufacturing..
As a materials engineer verging towards design engineer I cant see any diff between US/Taiwan Frames. I would in some ways be more confident in a Taiwan frame, the average us welder has the potential to be a real redneck and having seen some of the Obama hate vids recently I think lots of Americans are thick as pigshit. Your average Taiwanese is probably more motivated to do a good job.
Anyway I'll stick with the consensus, we like UK bikes even if they are made in Taiwan...
:Great_Britain:
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a taiwanese welder can weld just as good as an american welder,
tai frames are just as good as usa frames these days,
and thats a good thing,
it give folk on a budget access to well made and designed, strong, high quality frames,
but for me its got to be a bit special, bmx means alot to me and i dont want my shit mass produced,
like some dude in switzerland carefully crafting my watch with care and pride,
or some old geezer in japan taking the time to make sure my jeans are one of a kind,
i want my suits tailored by a time served craftsman in saville row,
i want my shit to feel special and i take care of it, make it last,
take my handmade cartier silver money clip, i've had it for nearly 15 years and its with me everyday, its worn smooth and polished, its mine , i know its mine and i like it,
its all alot of arrogant bollocks but it IS the way of the world,
if youre happy with the mass market thats absolutely fine, if you want bespoke get your cash out!
admit it, if you won the fooking lottery tomorow it wouldnt be a daewoo you'd be ordering would it?
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I always thought that the real issue with Tai stuff was simply the quality of the materials involved. I was lead to believe you can buy good quality and crappy Cromoly, just like everything else in the world. So, keep a tight grip on the quality of the materials and a quality product would automatically come about.
I know I'm over simplifying the whole thing, but you get my drift...
I'm sure someone told me that's how Hoffman kept the quality high on their Tai stuff - regular visits and constant communication, to make sure no ones standards dropped.
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a taiwanese welder can weld just as good as an american welder,
tai frames are just as good as usa frames these days,
and thats a good thing,
it give folk on a budget access to well made and designed, strong, high quality frames,
but for me its got to be a bit special, bmx means alot to me and i dont want my shit mass produced,
like some dude in switzerland carefully crafting my watch with care and pride,
or some old geezer in japan taking the time to make sure my jeans are one of a kind,
i want my suits tailored by a time served craftsman in saville row,
i want my shit to feel special and i take care of it, make it last,
take my handmade cartier silver money clip, i've had it for nearly 15 years and its with me everyday, its worn smooth and polished, its mine , i know its mine and i like it,
its all alot of arrogant bollocks but it IS the way of the world,
if youre happy with the mass market thats absolutely fine, if you want bespoke get your cash out!
admit it, if you won the fooking lottery tomorow it wouldnt be a daewoo you'd be ordering would it?
Joe
I have no fooking idea what you were on about, but thanks for taking the time to reply :LolLolLolLol:
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I get Joe's drift.
He accepts the good Taiwanese stuff is up there with the top US stuff these days but he wants something that's a bit more niche, rare or made with a bit more love. I can relate to that.
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no probs stidds :daumenhoch:
its easy though dude,
flashy shit is more expensive and you make it last a bit longer,
people all over the world can weld equally well but some are paid more than others,
we all fall for the marketing ethos of £££ = better,
i'll put this in cycling terms then,
my tonic fab frame was made buy a guy that ENJOYED building it,he thought it out, he designed it, he even welded the fooker together,
i know the dudes name and can call him and ask him anything about it that i might need to know,
it was built with love,
and (to me) that just makes it a nice thing to have and use,
but it cost a fookload more than a similar tai built frame so...
thats it.
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as long as the steel doesn't come out of china it should be ok.
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I agree with you Joe, I buy well and never false economise with the things around me. I've worn the same watch for almost 10 years, it's never missed a beat and never needed servicing. So, I know exactly where you are coming from.
But not every frame from Thailand is mass-market, there are still bespoke/small runs of crafted stuff, with the same quality materials and production methods. Take our new RADBMX FBR Forks and bars...just 30 of each. That's it.
The problem and stigma arises with the cheaper end of the market. Utter shite mass-market rubbish made by bean-counters.
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I think it comes down to the quailty of the materials, like some have said before a welder is a welder; But there is so many variations and markerting terms, Q BAKED, SANKO, 4 BUTTED, POST WELD HEAT TREATED to name a few it all gets too much. I think as always it comes down to money and everyone buys the best they can afford. Like Joe said if I was to win the lottery, I would probably buy S&M/STANDARD but only because I would want to go to the USA and collect it. There is a SNOB in all of us (not having a dig at Joe)
My old man used to have a saying 'The dearest is the cheapest in the long run' very true I think about alot of things, but we seem to live in a disposable world.
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is there anyone who can prove to me why a u.s. made frame would be better than a taiwanese frame? (thats taiwan, not thailand stodgy. :LolLolLolLol: )
yip, i thought so.
just to put a bit more into this, i've broke or bent every u.s. frame i've owned, and the only taiwanese frame i've broken was a late 80's hutch.
i wouldn't even ride a frame that was made in the u.k.
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there are so many factors involved in making frames and parts that either can have errors from time to time. nothing and no-one is infallable.
whether it down to the designer of the parts error, tubing grade being bad, inconsistant or dodgy welding, misalignment in jigs etc.
people having a bad day, time constraints, these can all affect how a product is made.
i've had usa, taiwanese and uk made bikes over the years. broke ones from all categories but also many have survived and gone on to others.
as well as the factors i mentioned above you also have the element of how a rider sets up the bike- does he do a botch job which will hinder it over time.
then the element of rider skills. no-one , and i mean no-one pulls every trick , every time perfect. obviously the more abuse you chuck at a bike the weaker it will become.
combine all these factors and bikes can literally fall apart.
bikes are better made now than they ever were, the taiwan made bikes are so good due to the years of building and honing their skills that i don't think there is any difference.
people will always buy because of the companies image. whether it S & M, Standard, Fly, Haro, Mirraco, Eastern, Proper, etc.
(i work in manufacturing - not bikes though- and also have some welding nvq's so i do have some background knowledge to back me up)
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Personnaly I would buy European or USA made goods over Taiwan goods for the pure fact I don't want to see the manufacturing skills totally lost in those countries. I work in UK heavy engineering (for a Japanese company) and at the end of the day when I've got my hands dirty and actually made something or developed something in to a product acceptable for a customer I feel bloody goos about it. I would hate to see the UK/EU/USA turn into a totally desk ridden countrys and I feel buying from within the EU or USA goes a little way to keeping the manufacturing skills alive.
But I do sometimes question the quality of goods from specialist manufactures and believe they trade on past glory a lot
Taiwan nice quality but not for me if I can help it (which sometime you can't)
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i'm a total fookin snob when it comes to this and i don't mind admitting it! joe i whole heartedly agree with you buddy. i know exactly where my stuff is made and what it goes through before arriving to me. and thats why i get what i get!
now mtb's i'm different with. we used to stock merida bikes at my old work place, they are the second largest cycle manufacturer in the world behind giant (or were) and i have to say the build quality on their frames were second to none and they're all robot welded in taiwan. i don't have one but i was impressed!
just something about bmx within me makes me want to know its source. probably a psychological trust thing from days of old. back in the 90's a taiwan frame was a kids bike. a usa made frame was a 'proper bmx'. even the big corporate companies top end frames were still made in the states with lower spec coming from taiwan
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I don't think it matters now in this day and age... many BMX's on the market are made in Taiwan and are superb quality!... i think this was more talked about with bikes BITD :)
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Why would Robbie Morales have his top end Fit frames manufactured by S&M in the usa and his complete's frames and lower end frames manufactured in Taiwan.
Surely he does this for a reason.
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Exclusivety I reckon :)
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Why would Robbie Morales have his top end Fit frames manufactured by S&M in the usa and his complete's frames and lower end frames manufactured in Taiwan.
Surely he does this for a reason.
Don't S&M/Chris Moeller co-own Fit with Robbie?
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I've had little ponder on this and I think the real point here is about what economists call the rational /irrational man. Basically its an illusion to think that people always make decisions for rational reasons. For example think of the northern rock crises - the govmnt guaranteed everyones savings, but still people queued outside the bank to take out their money, despite the widespread media coverage that their money was now safe(OK there are arguments here about do we trust the govt despite thier promises etc but you get my point)
You could say the same about the USA/Taiwan argument now, for a quality engineer and a purchasing manager they could probably find no reason to build frames in the US when they can be made in Taiwan cheaper and just as good quality, but some frames will be built in the US because the marketing people know that there are people who have emotional feelings about what they buy (and thats really important) even though they may not be rational.
Lets face it we all know that if something has the right label then it sells for much more despite the fact that the quality may not be different at all, and the made in USA label probably has the same effect.
Also many people do not have the knowledge or skills to determine quality so they go with perceived brand awareness instead, how do people know if a product is good otherwise? And the marketing people prey on this. So any company has to market on several fronts - technical to appeal to the geeks like me, and emotional 'buy this and you will be a better person/sexier/getlaid more etc' or quality by association 'this product must be good some famous dude uses it/ its got the queens charter mark etc etc' or quality by brand perception 'every ones knows that company x has a reputation for top quality, its got their badge on its must be good' . I heard a tale recently about a guy who bought a Kenwood cooker from Curry's only to find later that it was just a rebadged POS and is launching a legal challenge to Currys that he was mis-sold, which opens up a huge can of worms because loads of manufacturers re-badge stuff..
Then there is the cultural/racism/trust argument - the US has a similar culture to ours so we feel comfortable with them, the Taiwanese look different, eat differently and do things differently so surprisngly enough some people find that changes their perception about the goods the Taiwanese produce.
BUT all of us on here have the luxury of BMX's and we are involved purely for enjoyment and part of that enjoyment is the purchasing and ownership "experience" which is about feeling good- its almost purely emotional so we are going to gravitate towards products that give us the emotional tickle we require..
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It seems to me that desirability is the main factory for buying a US-made frame over a Taiwanese-made frame.
I don't think there's any question that S&M and Standard are top notch in every respect. But even if the quality wasn't as high, they would still be the default/automatic choice for a lot of people because they're desirable brands.
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Why would Robbie Morales have his top end Fit frames manufactured by S&M in the usa and his complete's frames and lower end frames manufactured in Taiwan.
Surely he does this for a reason.
Price.
Completes have price points they need to meet...this can only be achieved through manufacturing in the far east.
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Price.
Completes have price points they need to meet...this can only be achieved through manufacturing in the far east.
Its the same with old school bikes, if you sell a complete bike people dont really want to pay the price of the parts added together thats why its always better to sell the bits separately..
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i'm not rational,
i'm a fooking fruit-loop :daumenhoch:
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Indeed I think anyone into OSBMX has to be a bit nutty..
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i'm not rational,
i'm a fooking fruit-loop :daumenhoch:
a fair point, well made.
thanks joe.
lol
Dave
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on some of our frames in the future we will get the tubes made in the UK then shipped over to Taiwan made into frames then shipped all over europe,
when shipping to europe alot has to be taken into considerasion like exchange rates etc etc and shipping cost inport and export duties
with all this taken into consideration shipping from Taiwan is the best and cheapest way to do so which is better for the customer as then the price of the product is cheaper