RADBMX.CO.UK
New School BMX 2004 - Now => New School Racing => Topic started by: Bushwacked on April 30, 2009, 05:20 PM
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I'm after a bit of insight into track design as one is being built by a builder who hasn't done one before (Its a long story!!)
I've been told that the track needs to have the sections between the jumps and berms brought down to ground level for health and safety reasons. Its being said that the edge where the track transfers to ground level is hazard and would cause injuries, even though it slopes down to ground level.
While I really value the guys input so far (as a lot of what has happened wouldn't have happened without his input) this is becoming a bit of a sticking point as I'm being told by the builder it is OK and he's not going to remove it. Plus the council's Health and Safety people are happy with it.
So, my question is should the level of the track be at ground level or is it OK about 6-12inches above ground level as per this photo below (although its more graduated and lower now?
(http://teamtompkins.bulldoghome.com/photos/BDRES/teamtompkins_bulldoghome_com/Cleeve_redevelop%20005small.JPG)
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you'll find a lot of tracks are built slightly above ground level as this will aid drainage of water
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Im no track designer or health and safety officer but i cant really see why that should hamper you at all, who told you to do that?
I can' really imagine why other than for public health insurance etc, but if the council are ok with it? falling off and rolling down a 6inch slope is not really going to make a difference imo ;)
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Surely if it has to be level for H&S reasons then all you would end up with is a flat field with no jumps or berms and a track shape marked out in white paint on the floor. Because any kind of pole or tape would be hazardous.
So the 6-12 inches is basically more hazardous than the 3-4 foot jumps :LolLolLolLol:
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The feel I'm getting for this, and is what I've been thinking, is that the jumps aren't at ground level so it doesn't really make a damn if the flats between them are ground level or 3ft off the ground.
Is this right?
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The only real consideration is that if a rider were to get run off of the track thay actually had a safe journy onto the grass. IE didn't have to bump down a 6" ledge. as long as its graded on the way down its cool.
UCI spec asks for a minnimum of 1m run off areas.
All of the track surface should be higher than the surrounding land to aid dranage.
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The only real consideration is that if a rider were to get run off of the track thay actually had a safe journy onto the grass. IE didn't have to bump down a 6" ledge. as long as its graded on the way down its cool.
My thoughts exactly...
Thanks.
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I'm being told by the builder it is OK and he's not going to remove it. Plus the council's Health and Safety people are happy with it.
If the builder and council H&S people are happy with it, who is it that isn't happy with it?
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One of the local riders about our age.
SE-Bmxer has kindly offered to come down and do have a look and give me his thoughts. I'm looking forward to see what he thinks.
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can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side :2funny:
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can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side :2funny:
hi im the warden , speaking on behalf of cheltbmx.com ,my problem with this track is that its raised in the middles so the jumps are small with dirt you have to allow for shrinkage .
the middle section runs up hill.
removing the dirt to ground level will make the track flow .
i was asked to designed the track after the first plan failed ,the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
im 40 have been riding 15 years plus raced a little in the 80s ,have dug chissy trails swindon ,seen trails spots all over europe toured the usa woodward
please check cheltbmx .com ......fair play to bushwacked but ,the second time round we need to make this work .....
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What about when it rains?
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can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side :2funny:
hi im the warden , speaking on behalf of cheltbmx.com ,my problem with this track is that its raised in the middles so the jumps are small with dirt you have to allow for shrinkage .
the middle section runs up hill.
removing the dirt to ground level will make the track flow .
i was asked to designed the track after the first plan failed ,the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
im 40 have been riding 15 years plus raced a little in the 80s ,have dug chissy trails swindon ,seen trails spots all over europe toured the usa woodward
please check cheltbmx .com ......fair play to bushwacked but ,the second time round we need to make this work .....
if you read your comments on Cheltbmx.com it doesn't come across as so.......
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the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
I'm confused, why would having the middle still in make any difference?
a set of doubles is pretty similar to a table top with the middle cut out?
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the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
I'm confused, why would having the middle still in make any difference?
a set of doubles is pretty similar to a table top with the middle cut out?
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I'm a bit confused too.
Warden - you'll have to use simple language for me as I'm a simple soul.
Can you please spell out, being as prescriptive as possible what the problem is, what the proposed solution is and how it will then be better, both in terms of riding and safety.
Please do not be concerned with patronising me as the more detail the better.
And to be clear - the reason I am asking this is purely to get a better understanding of the situation on site.
Thanks.
Dex
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can't see it makes any difference?
we couldn't have it flat at the edges at crewe because the track runs downhill the whole track would have to slope from side to side :2funny:
hi im the warden , speaking on behalf of cheltbmx.com ,my problem with this track is that its raised in the middles so the jumps are small with dirt you have to allow for shrinkage .
the middle section runs up hill.
removing the dirt to ground level will make the track flow .
i was asked to designed the track after the first plan failed ,the track has been built to my design but with the middles left in it will fail .....
im 40 have been riding 15 years plus raced a little in the 80s ,have dug chissy trails swindon ,seen trails spots all over europe toured the usa woodward
please check cheltbmx .com ......fair play to bushwacked but ,the second time round we need to make this work .....
Raised in the middle how? A good camber will aid drainage.
Jumps small? do you mean that the jump height was made from grass level and now thwy are 6 or so inches smaller due to the raised track height.
Dirt shrinkage? If it's packed well and then Type 1 MOT'd it aint going anywhere.
Whats wrong with up hill?
Have you ever built a race track before? it's far more than piles of mud.
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sorry for the confusion and my spelling
what i mean is the ground that is raised in between table,jumps doubles .
the ground has been raised up creating a platform this has been smoothed done on the edges now ....
but if it was removed it would make the jumps bigger and allow water to drain from the berms as this banking stops drainage .
taking the middles out will help sort drainage and allow the track to run down hill .....
and the main thing give this track some flow.
my safety concerns to start with where that if you where to knock bars and be forced off the raised platform middle you had a good chance of going over the bars
it was kind of like a kerb drop ....
the dirt that is removed can be used for a second large table ,trick set make sense to me hope it does to you
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the track is all dirt no type one ..3/4 to dust just dirt on cheltbmx.com bushwacked has put up some flicker photos check these this may help
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Warden, there are a lot of very experienced track builders on here & we all want to help you to make your track the best it can be. :angel:
Start from the beginning in simple language & i'm sure the advice you get here will be the best thats available & help you to get it right. :)
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ok i will try again in the photo at the begining of this thread ,you will see a fella on a big yellow roller beneath him is the dirt that i want removed this would make the jumps bigger and when the dirt shrinks down it will be easier to maintain and you would not be riding along a raised platform .
if all these sections where removed the track would be pumpable and appeal to all riders as it would flow a lot better .
thanks for your support hope this helps
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Ok I see what you are saying fella.
The raised track height is the right thing to do, I've done enough winter racing to say defernatley stick with that idea. But the track edges must be very gradual not like a ledge.
I also see what you mean about those jumps needing to be a bit bigger. Is there no more soil available? can the site be excavated on the inside of the track to make an even lower point for water to run to? thus giving you more soil to build those jumps up???
As I said previously if the jumps are packed good and hard and then have type1 MOT hardcore rollered over them before limestone is applied they will take years and years to move. Race tracks don't slump if they are built right.
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thats kinda my point the jumps are to small , the photo is from the first atemp to build the track .things are a lot bigger now but middles raised still (arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)
there is a photo of track in its present state on cheltbmx.com ,you will have to wade through the salt to get it ...lol
the dirt from the middles can make the jumps bigger and there will be enough left for another large table top.
so we will have a track ,plus two 10 foot tables to trick ,i asked for the backs of the berms to be made wide ,so they can be used as jump outs ? waiting points to sesh the lines ? if that makes sense ..
i will post photos of track ,as soon as i can so you can see my problems and hopefully understand my dream ,cheers gc the warden
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Hi Graham, good to see you on here. :daumenhoch:
This hasn't been the easiest project to work on. The odds have been stacked against us with things like the lack of council funds, the rush to do it, the contractors lack of experience and seemingly everyone complaining with only a few yourself included inputting into sorting it out. Personally I now have a lot less hair than I did when I started this. :-\
Our aim at the moment is to get the jumps shaped and track smooth so that the track flows and you can pump through it nicely - its fun at the moment but hard work.
I'll be totally honest in that I'm not sure how much benefit taking middles out will have as the manual work of shaping still needs to be done - although we could use the dirt from the middles to make the jumps bigger but this would be a big lot of work. This is why we are focusing on getting the jumps shaped as once this is done we'll get an idea of how much impact taking the middle out will have. Especially as we have a whacker plate coming down soon to pack down the alterations we are doing currently.
The council have advised that they don't want anything other than shaping and smoothing done until the track has bedded down, so this blows out the chance of the middles being taken out or changing some jumps to doubles or adding the odd roller here and there which we want to do. Hopefully once we have the shapes right we can focus on phase 2 and how we can develop the jumps and add some more to make it more interesting. It would be great to have yours and others input for this.
Its slowly coming together, I can see the finish soon and it should be good once it is done. Ideally we need people to come and help out to get it sorted otherwise its going to take me and the others a whole lot longer.
James and I did some good work on there yesterday and the step up and 1st berm is looking sweet. He knows his stuff and was good to work on it with him yesterday. :daumenhoch:
As those on here know I welcome any advice in getting this to be as good as it can - but there are limitations on what is possible due to certain factors in play (The council being one of them)
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well im glad your fooking happy i feel the chelt scene has been robbed put over a barrel and shaffted ,,,,,
yes we can all ways make do ,you had no right to push forward your ideas as riding for ayear gives you no right to take over the running of are scene .
you should have listend to the locals first, then come on this web site, asked your beginers questions then came back to us for are veiws ,time and time again i asked for the middles out so the jumps would be bigger but you no better ,having never dug in your life ?
good luck to baker digging with you JUDAS......................
WELL THANKS TO ALL FOR POSTING , GC THE WARDEN
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well im glad your fooking happy i feel the chelt scene has been robbed put over a barrel and shaffted ,,,,,
yes we can all ways make do ,you had no right to push forward your ideas as riding for ayear gives you no right to take over the running of are scene .
you should have listend to the locals first, then come on this web site, asked your beginers questions then came back to us for are veiws ,time and time again i asked for the middles out so the jumps would be bigger but you no better ,having never dug in your life ?
good luck to baker digging with you JUDAS......................
WELL THANKS TO ALL FOR POSTING , GC THE WARDEN
Tool.
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I think we can all now see the problem with this build. ;)
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Graham, I've got no beef with you personally but I'm shocked, totally shocked.
I posted up numerous times on your Chelt Scene site to get input from your guys and got near constant abuse, but I carried on and finally you me and Jay hooked up and you gave me your input which I put forward to the council the day after I'd had some plans signed off as your suggestions made more sense, you then gave me some further input halfway through the build which I fought with the council to get done, which they did 90% of but they ran out of time and money to do it all but have given us something to ride and develop.
If you and the scene are so gutted about this why didn't you provide the input earlier in the process when I asked for help. I was brought into this by the Cheltenham Cycle Club chairman and am representing them and to be honest I didn't need to get your input but came to you to get your views as you are the most obvious group of BMX riders in the area and didn't want to deny you lot your say. I have always been up front with whoever asks that I am not the person who knows the most about this, hence why I posted up on your site asking for advice and cooperation.
If this is what people get for helping then I'm not surprised no one trys these days. I'm starting to wish I'd let them bulldoze it!!
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so bushwacked, you started all this and others are now jumping on tailcoats ?
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If this is what people get for helping then I'm not surprised no one trys these days. I'm starting to wish I'd let them bulldoze it!!
Welcome to the world of BMX fella >:D
Your raised track is fine, shape the jumps and make a track that all age groups can enjoy. lets not forget that one of the fastest growing groups is the 6 and unders.
Let this tool go and dig in the woods :yahoo_silent:
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so bushwacked, you started all this and others are now jumping on tailcoats ?
Didn't really start it, but have worked bloody hard with various groups including the council to get where we are from where we were.
Shame you can't please all the people. It would have been great to have got what everyone wanted (or even what I wanted) out of this. But since no one has paid anything for this apart from me putting in a serious amount of my time we can't really complain as what we have is the beginnings of a new bike facility for everyone to ride. :daumenhoch:
Moschops - Cheers, I've enjoyed the world of BMX especially being welcomed by the RAD family, shame this project has shown me another side of things.
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CHELTBMX JAM PITTVILLE PARK CHELTENHAM JULY 4 2009
WILL BE A FUN DAY OUT , COME AND MEET US AND ENJOY ARE PARK AND HOSPITALITY ITS NOT ALL SALT IN THE VILLE ?
LIKE I SAID IV DRAWN A LINE UNDER THIS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO TRY UNDERSTAND MY POINT OF VEIW BE READING THE THREADS ON CHELTBMX.COM
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dont fookin shout!
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GC - I've not been on CheltBMX for a few weeks but I understand where you are coming from and you know I've been a big supporter of your ideas for the track. The digging out of the middles (or even half of them) became a BIG sticking point for the council with me stuck in the middle of them and you, I've just been trying to look on the positive side so I keep hold of my sanity.
Unfortunately the council have also drawn a line under it and disappointingly are saying they won't allow any major changes to go ahead before the end of the year. Looking on the bright side it allows the track to bed in while everyone really thinks about what the track would benefit from going forward and if needed we can look at options of how to fund any changes. The great thing is we have a track and hopefully (judging by the amount of people riding it so far) its here to stay!
We just need to pull together our thoughts on how to improve the track for phase 2, such as getting a surface of sorts laid down, bigger or different jumps and perhaps more of them better spaced and of course cutting off some of the surface to make the track flow more. We'll have to resubmit drawings and plans to support our suggestions to get the council to give it the OK, but I think this is a hassle that is more than worth it. We may even beable to convince the council to use a proper track builder next time!!! ;)
As I said earlier it would be great to have your input for this. :daumenhoch:
Everyone - As Thewarden says come down to the jam at Pittville on the 4th July - Its a great park so should be a good one and there are some scarily good riders down our way that are just mental to watch!
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Great to see you at the track tonight bush ! I hope i have given you some fath in an old school rider lolol ? We are not all that bad >:D. Well looking frwd to nxt monday night and i will bring a shovel an implement consisting of a broad blade or scoop attached to a long handle,used for taking up,removing,or throwing loose matter.... :LolLolLolLol:...
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yeh cool bush .............................
iv talked to baker he is down with it and has kinda talked me round .
i think iv thrown all my toys out of the pram now ,sulked and shouted enough .
im hoping to get up and have a dig as soon as my bus is finished , go easy on the lips as there is not to much dirt to play with ? :rant:
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No worries GC - hope to catch up sometime soon.
:daumenhoch: