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Technical & Reference Section => Tech and Restoration => Topic started by: bobafett on August 12, 2009, 02:43 PM
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I got a PM from Paul (snav69) asking about what is the difference between a mongoose 2 model and a motomag model as he has an '81 goose and i thought it was worth discussing.............
here is pauls frame - http://www.radbmx.co.uk/forum/index.php'topic=85771.0
These are my personal views so feel free to chip in ;)
If you go by decal names then bmxproducts.com has the black background decals as mongoose 2 and the gold background as mongoose / motomag which would put Paul's as a mongoose 2 - As a side issue on the "motomag" topic personally i believe that name to be something created by collectors today OR owners BITD based on the motomag decal that was often on the downtube - the model was never called the "motmag" by mongoose as far as I am concerned - it was always just a "mongoose" I'm also fairly sure that the motomag decal came with the frame but not applied - it was the choice of the owner to apply it or not and many survivors can be found without the motomag decal and no sticky residue indicating that it ever was - anyways I digress :-[ ;D
Back on the mongoose 2 trail............... right so according to bmxproducts.com - black background decal = mongoose 2 - it is also my belief that this decal change may coincide with the movement of the frame decal from the top tube to the down tube for standard mongoose models (supergoose / team etc. had already moved to the downtube prior to this) AND also possibly coincides with the change of serial number style ('81 mongoose survivor owners could help me confirm this with serial number / decal combination info ;) ) i.e. I have seen 1981 survivor frames with the "C" prefix serial on the bottom bracket tube and gold background decals but the frames without the "C" prefix serial nos. having the black background decals.
1981 was a busy year for mongoose changes :LolLolLolLol: and that's before we even start talking about the dropouts changing that year too :-X :LolLolLolLol:
Anyways........ again............. back to the question(s) in hand :-[ ;D
Decals aside, the frames are identical so as such there is no such thing as a mongoose II frame ;)
....but just to throw a spanner in the works the term "mongoose 2" OR "mongoose II" as it happens first appears in the mongoose 1979/80 catalogue with the older decals and the only difference to a standard "mongoose" (or "motomag" to some) would be the parts on it - freewheel instead of coaster - alloy wheels - full caliper brake set front and rear ;)
Here is a piccy from the 79/80 catalogue :
(http://www.jpdeane.com/bmx/mongoose2_79.jpg)
And then in 81 the spec changes again as there is only a rear brake and there is agold stem etc. :LolLolLolLol:
Here is a piccy from the 81 catalogue (as you can see it has the earlier decal as this is how they started out at the begining of 1981 and as you can see it is on the top tube, also there is a motomag decal supporting the "no such thing as a motomag model" theory) :
(http://www.jpdeane.com/bmx/mongoose2_81.jpg)
So I guess if the question is "What is a mongoose II" the answer is - a standard mongoose with alloy wheels no coaster and caliper brake(s)
but if the question is "What is a mongoose 2" - the answer is a standard mongoose with 2nd generation decals.
So I guess I've either cleared this up now or totally confused everyone and made the situation worse :LolLolLolLol:
Please chip in with any thoughts......................................
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To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. ???
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To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. ???
see Bob i would call that a mark or type 2 / 2nd gen
then the mark 3 has no gussets at all
with the mongoose 2 as per the catalogue
would / could that be tied to the lose of the coaster brake tab ?
so very early 76 etc no brake bridge just the tab
then had both
then just the brake bridge ?
and i think your right John the term mongoose motomag has become a generic term
rather like hoover describing any vacuum cleaner
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Are you saying there is no model called a Motomag :-\
I have just had a look through a catalogue and there is a model called the motomag in it ???
Confusing stuff :D
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Are you saying there is no model called a Motomag :-\
I have just had a look through a catalogue and there is a model called the motomag in it ???
Confusing stuff :D
I guess what I'm saying with reference to "motomag" Paul is that many people list a mongoose frame for sale as a "mongoose motomag F&F" but there is no such thing - the bike you refer to in the 81 catalogue has coaster motomag wheels and as a full bike it is labelled as a "motomag" in that catalogue but above it is a "freemag" with freewheel motomag wheels but it's not a "mongoose freemag F&F" if you catch my drift - also this is the only catalogue that gives each build style of the same frame different little monikers - in all the earlier catalogues it's just a "mongoose" regardless of motomags or spokes ;)
I think that makes sense - well it did to me when I typed it :LolLolLolLol:
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I get ya' John , Got confused with the bike/frame part, all cleared up now matey :daumenhoch:
I'm thick me you know :crazy2:
:LolLolLolLol:
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Isn't the only difference what wheels came with the bike'the frames are the same,tri-moly
with a high tensile rear end.
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Isn't the only difference what wheels came with the bike'the frames are the same,tri-moly
with a high tensile rear end.
That's pretty much what I was getting at - all be it long windedly :-[ :LolLolLolLol:
Although theres also the coaster / caliper brake element to it too ;)
I guess I'm throwing into the mix a possibility of the existence of a mongoose II AND a mongoose 2
The first being the spec difference the second one being the decal style & postion change + possibly serial number type (and dare I throw it in the mix - dropouts :-\ )
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Isn't the only difference what wheels came with the bike'the frames are the same,tri-moly
with a high tensile rear end.
That's pretty much what I was getting at - all be it long windedly :-[ :LolLolLolLol:
Although theres also the coaster / caliper brake element to it too ;)
I guess I'm throwing into the mix a possibility of the existence of a mongoose II AND a mongoose 2
The first being the spec difference the second one being the decal style & postion change + possibly serial number type (and dare I throw it in the mix - dropouts :-\ )
Hey guys,
I've been reading this thread with interest... so I'll just throw a curve at ya!
I don't know jack about Mongoose but as a graphics designer for 26 years I would maybe suggest that whether it's a II or a 2 is just a typographical design change the manufacturers decided to implement into their literature and not necesserly a model change.
.... just a thought :daumenhoch:
John
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im building a 2 at the mo!!!wasnt the 2 the same frame as the motomag??
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im building a 2 at the mo!!!wasnt the 2 the same frame as the motomag??
motomag ? what motomag ? :-X :LolLolLolLol:
And how are you defining yours as a "2" ??? ;D or is that "II" :LolLolLolLol:
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im building a 2 at the mo!!!wasnt the 2 the same frame as the motomag??
motomag ? what motomag ? :-X :LolLolLolLol:
And how are you defining yours as a "2" ??? ;D or is that "II" :LolLolLolLol:
by the new decals ive got for it!! :LolLolLolLol:
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To many words and not enough pictures in this thread for me :-\
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To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. ???
X2 with bells on!!(thats the answer to above,not a mongoose with bells on!!!)
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To many words and not enough pictures in this thread for me :-\
Me too :-\
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So Kev that would make the Mongoose with the step down dropouts about the mk10, there were a few variants wer'n't there. :-\
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To many words and not enough pictures in this thread for me :-\
Me too :-\
Well I started with 2 catalogue shots and a link to paul's (snav69) bike (which has pics) what d'ya want BLOOD ::) :LolLolLolLol:
Anyone with an '81 survivor with ORIGINAL decals get a picture up with the serial number and dropouts :daumenhoch:
That'll sort the mongoose "2" thing - as for the mongoose "II" thing what would we post a picture of ? ???
I could stick a set of calipers and some alloy wheels in place of the motomags on one of my early frames and call it a "II" if ya like :LolLolLolLol:
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To my mind the Mongoose 2 was the one with the step down dropouts. ???
X2 with bells on!!
I hear ya but the trouble with mongoose is that changes tended to overlap.
there were 3 main changes in 1981 :
1: the decals style / position
2: the serial number style
3: the dropout style
so does a TRUE mongoose 2 have all 3 of the above ? ??? and a mongoose have none ? ??? and anything in between is an overlap frame / decal / dropout mix due to assembly methods in the factory at the time ?
Possible example - frame gets welded up with all mongoose 1 elements - it sits as stock for a while and then gets decal'd up (with the now in use new mongoose 2 decals) assembled and sold - is it a mongoose 2 ?
Example number 2 - frame gets welded up using an earlier style serial stamped bottom bracket but uses the now standard mongoose 2 drop out - is it a mongoose 2 ?
'81 what a year :LolLolLolLol:
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My serial is - G136655 :daumenhoch:
:coolsmiley:
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My serial is - G136655 :daumenhoch:
:coolsmiley:
cant tell you what mine is cos its at south coast chrome having a beauty treatment!!
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My serial is - G136655 :daumenhoch:
:coolsmiley:
Well there is a scenario straight away on yours Paul - 2nd gen decals 2nd gen serial 1st gen drop outs = mongoose 1.5 :LolLolLolLol:
Here's Paul's frame for the picture whores ::) ;D :
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/n164/snav69/1-15.jpg)
and here is one of mine.......... (excuse the mess in the loft :-[ ;D )
she's a bit rusty as well :shocked: one day she'll get powdered but the list is long before i get to her :LolLolLolLol:
..........dropouts are 2nd gen, decals are second gen and serial No. G142807 is 2nd gen (and same month serial as paul's ;) )
(http://www.jpdeane.com/bmx/mybikes/mongoose2_1.jpg)
(http://www.jpdeane.com/bmx/mybikes/mongoose2_2.jpg)
(http://www.jpdeane.com/bmx/mybikes/mongoose2_3.jpg)
(http://www.jpdeane.com/bmx/mybikes/mongoose2_4.jpg)
Are you happy now picture ferrets ? ??? :LolLolLolLol:
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John..... just to confuse things mate :LolLolLolLol:
Whats the difference between your frame above and my frame, they look identical. ??? ???
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John..... just to confuse things mate :LolLolLolLol:
Whats the difference between your frame above and my frame, they look identical. ??? ???
They are pretty much identical mate - your one is an '83 model which has all of the 3 81 element changes on it mentioned above - dropouts / serial style / decals (once you get the decals that is ;) ) once these changes happened in 81 this style of frame carried on through to the end of it's life in 83 :daumenhoch:
The only difference is that your serial is probably on the box section lip rather than the BB and the box section is channel rather than full box in the case of mine ;)
Ahh yes the box section behind the BB wonder if that changed in 81 as well :-X :LolLolLolLol:
All my 82 frames are channel not box and all my 81's are box :-\ maybe that changed late 81 / early 82 ???
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The only difference is that your serial is probably on the box section lip rather than the BB and the box section is channel rather than full box in the case of mine ;)
Ahhhhh i can see the difference now, i didn't notice your BB section in your photo.
(http://www.radbmx.co.uk/archive/albums/p191/carpcrazyox/mg7-1.jpg)
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The only difference is that your serial is probably on the box section lip rather than the BB and the box section is channel rather than full box in the case of mine ;)
Ahhhhh i can see the difference now, i didn't notice your BB section in your photo.
;) :daumenhoch:
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I can see this thread ending up like the infamous Redline Proline thread on here..... fookin epic :2funny:
John
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So Kev that would make the Mongoose with the step down dropouts about the mk10, there were a few variants wer'n't there. :-\
bob not quite ;)
mk 1 had the flat style rear drops
mk 2 had the step down drops ( as per your frame)
mk 3 had no gussets
after that
who cares >:D
however in the mark one style there was a model called mongoose II which was one of 4 standard models
- mongoose
- mongoose II
- mongoose motomag
- mongoose freemag not wheel
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So Kev that would make the Mongoose with the step down dropouts about the mk10, there were a few variants wer'n't there. :-\
bob not quite ;)
mk 1 had the flat style rear drops
mk 2 had the step down drops ( as per your frame)
mk 3 had no gussets
after that
who cares >:D
however in the mark one style there was a model called mongoose II which was one of 4 standard models
mongoose
mongoose II
mongoose motomag
mongoose freewheel
So Kev you agree then that the mongoose II and mongoose 2 are two different things ? ???
i.e.
mongoose II = standard mongoose frame 1979-early 1981 but diiferent spec components (alloy wheels, freewheel, caliper brakes)
mongoose 2 = 1981 onwards - change in dropouts, serial style and decal style/position
? ???
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john
yeap i do agree
there was what we call a mk 1 mongoose called the mongoose II its in the catalogues
as was the mongoose motomag
then the drops changed and we refer to those as mks two for easy id
mongoose didn't call them that
though the gusset less supergoose was called the supergoose III in some ad's
and then theres all those weird / odd ball ones as the styles changed and the parts bins played catch up
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then the drops changed and we refer to those as mks two for easy id
mongoose didn't call them that
Exactly "mongoose II" was a model name for a complete bike with a certain spec sold by mongoose but "mongoose 2" is a label that we as collectors give to the changed style of frame in the second half of 1981 onwards ;)
.......but :LolLolLolLol:
Is it not dificult with those cross over frames to just put it down to the drop outs alone as the one item that says "right that's a mongoose 2" ? ???
I look at Paul's (snav69) 1981 goose and my 1981 goose above, BOTH of them with July '81 serial numbers both with 2nd gen style serial numbers and both with second gen survivor decals and it's hard for me to just say "oh mines a mongoose 2 and paul's is a mongoose 1" as they could both possibly qualify as a "2" depending on the criteria you use :-\
Your thoughts mate ? ???
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John your example is a good test
on first view I would have said mk1 & mk2 based on the drops alone
also the frame numbers prob help clearly identify the change over period
which is handy to know
once you go beyond that basic ID you get into the "mongoose mess"
and then Bob's comment about many the variants becomes true (and we can't have bob being right .... >:D )
& to truly collect every goose you would need one of all these variants :shocked:
another question to ponder is why did they change the rear drops at all ?
pure cosmetics ?
or that and sales ie must have the latest bike ?
easier to build ?
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another question to ponder is why did they change the rear drops at all ?
Buggered if i'll be able to find it but I've read the answer to that - somewhere ::)
It was something like.... the 2nd gen or "super" dropout as it's often known was designed with the slot parrallel to the ground whereas the old mk1 style angles down - the old style would vary ride height / clearance (although only bloody marginaly !) depending on wheel position in the slot due to chain length etc. so the mk2 or super dropout negates this by being parrallel :daumenhoch:
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I think it also helped with chain tension :-\
......and how sh!t was I at spelling parallel in that last post :-[ :LolLolLolLol:
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:LolLolLolLol:
get firefox and the built spell chicker ..... ;)
your explanation makes sense ( dam how did he know that ;D )
super drop out ?
more info please
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super drop out ?
more info please
Dunno really Kev - not sure where I've got that term from TBH :-\ something I've obviously picked up on in one of the many many mongoose threads I've trawled through on various sites :-[ :idiot2: ;D
I'll have a little search around and see if I can refresh my memory :D
:daumenhoch:
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Wow, to start with i wondered wtf you were on about john. Then your descriptive powers made it all clear. I like the term mongoose mess as someone used. Seems very apt.
Good read though cause i did end up understanding it in the end :shocked: :coolsmiley: :daumenhoch:
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Wow, to start with i wondered wtf you were on about john. Then your descriptive powers made it all clear. I like the term mongoose mess as someone used. Seems very apt.
Good read though cause i did end up understanding it in the end :shocked: :coolsmiley: :daumenhoch:
Clear as mud :LolLolLolLol:
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Clear as mud :LolLolLolLol:
shouldn't that be
as clear as Mongoose ?
::) :D
i'll get me mongoose
i mean coat
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I just feel sorry for Paul (snav69) he only asked a seemingly simple question via PM and ends up with a 3 page thread :-[ :LolLolLolLol:
So Paul to wrap the thread up - having read all this have you decided what bike you have there ??? :LolLolLolLol:
The choices are.....
"mongoose"
"mongoose II"
"mongoose 2"
...and dare I say it "motomag" :-X
Maybe we should put it to the vote :LolLolLolLol:
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:LolLolLolLol:
:D
Thanks for all the hard work John :4_17_5:
I think i'll be calling mine a Mongoose II as advertised in the catalogue and if i was to sell the frame and forks alone i would probably call it a mongoose F&F off a mongoose II ::) ;D
I have a headache now :2funny:
Cheers Fellas :4_17_5:
:coolsmiley:
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No worries Paul - dead easy really, nothing to it ::) :-X :LolLolLolLol:
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Anyone want to resurrect this thread?